Gun splash upgrade
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T3 mex and t3 hq is like double the mass of double gun lol, idk what to tell you other than the fact gun is totally viable to abuse during t3 transition if you actually plan for it and yes, there is nothing you can do about it beyond a preplanned firebase if it comes for you.
Double gun doesn’t make you tanky but you automatically get 5 vet with double gun and it isn’t hard to delay a push for another 20 seconds to grab first nano with it either.
Double nano is the t3 stage combat upgrade of sera which does require a t3 pgen.
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Even if gun costs half the mass of a t3 mex or t3 hq, the problem is the energy, not the mass. How do you get the t3 pgen if you did not invest in t3 in the first place? It may be viable to abuse during t3 transition, but you would need considerable results to justify the investment. It takes time, and energy at a crucial point in a match.
I think this upgrade is heavily tied to advanced nano because of the threat of air snipes. So while the cost itself is fine, getting advanced nano is a must to survive air snipes. Thus the upgrade gets made too late on its own or takes a gamble by investing in adv nano. Your opponent is either dominating air or is going for t3 air or both. It makes more sense to invest the energy to contest/keep air control. This is for 1v1 btw.
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Double nano double gun ACU can kill an ML easily (or a chicken with decent micro), nothing short of an investment equivalent to that is killing it so bringing advanced nano makes the whole convo pointless.
Double gun counters:
- Total air supremacy
- Coherent firebase since lines of pds die extremely quickly to the aoe of the gun
- 5 snipers or competently micro’d percies (around 5k-6k mass investment) which can still be killed by the double gun ACU dropping on the units
Air supremacy is not tied to someone going double gun in a teamgame, hence relying on it is inherently risky. Instead you are left with the firebase option or having enough aa alongside your t3 army to discourage a drop on your supposed counter and resulting in you dying.
You don’t need a t3 pgen for double gun, so irrelevant point. The results of your investment is a won game as basically nothing exists to stop your push except a large concentration of bp which is usually only located right at the enemy main base.
If you’re looking at it from 1v1 then I have nothing to say because nobody seems to even use it in 1v1. Buffing it for 1v1 makes sera which is already probably the best all around faction in teamgames even more ridiculous just for the 6 dudes that even see the beginning of t3 stage in ladder. It would need a huge nerf like taking the aoe away to even be considered much cheaper than it currently is.
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Dont forget Sera have very strong mobile shields. While I can't speak from experience of using shield+Gun-SingleNano ACU (as I tend to prefer Cybran if I'm planning a maxed out ACU attack), just looking at the numbers you can avoid getting advanced nano to allow a double-gun Sera ACU to attack sooner and use a mobile shield to make up half the difference (since the shield is a lot faster than the ACU so could even join the ACU part-way through the attack either by running to it or a transport drop). 1 mobile shield+1 Nano gives you 23.5k health and saves 4.5k mass (and a huge amount of energy) compared to getting advanced nano.
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Splash can be done on 3 t2 pgens.
#13529695 Maverick gets splash at 17mins on 1 t2 pgen (probably with air player support) highly effective.
#14884744 Rowan gets splash at 11.40 off 3 t2 pgens, would have won the game if not for north team air dominance
(and yes I understand that both of these maps are high reclaim)
Its highly situational for sure and maybe a bit of a meme strat but so is getting mazer (which requires either cloak or tele to even be considered useful as cybran doesn't have nano or shield).Also you only need even air to exploit an early splash as if the enemy has to resort to sniping you then your team should win air.
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The problem is at 11.40 or 17mins there is T3 air at that stage, it is just too risky to have the ACU be out in front with the splash upgrade were all it takes is 2 strats to take the acu out.
If T3 air did not come into play until the 17-20 min mark then splash upgrade is a good option as there is time to use it before t3 air comes.
If you ask me under 10 min strategic bomber is too fast, however that is a another topic.
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Why enemy has luxury to make the equivalent of 7 asfs worth of strats when asf total count should be like 10 and not get punished for it
You can also dodge 2 strats like half the time with even rudimentary circle micro.
If you mean that pushing in during t3 transition phase is bad when your air player is 5 minutes behind, well then yeah, that's true regardless of faction or map.
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just add the ability to shoot planes with the splash upgrade, ez fix
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Double gun basically makes your commander a tiny experimental which can be problematic if the aim of the game is to kill the enemy commander, if you make it more easily gotten in 1v1 it will be way too common in teamgames where people can pool resources
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Still at the moment even with all the assumption made about the change, splash upgrade is a meme. The cost is too expensive for something that you would put on your com early and not impactful enough when getting it late because of exp/strats.
What i proposed was approximately a 25% cost reduction but it could be less. It could also be a reduction on the building time
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I'd say either make it the same cost and dps as cybran laser, making the only option for mid game pushing the regen aura upgrade or change it to something along the lines of
Damage per shot + 750 -> + 300 (1700 -> 800 dps with the gun upgrade)
Cost (roughly same cost as chrono/tac pack)
mass 5,400 -> 1,750
energy 270,00 -> 52,500Which would put a gun nano splash sera acu in line with a heavily upgraded sACU rather than a mini exp.
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I'd see more close to 2.5k/3k mass and 100k E for 500/550
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So, what the balance team think about it and it's implementation?
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Why not make it into a two stage upgrade like RAS?
This would make it more useful, as it is more affordable without getting to strong and it also acts as a warning to the opponent, that he should prepare for a full double gun ACU. -
While I can't speak for them, the thread/original post didn't try to follow the pinned guidelines (https://forum.faforever.com/topic/759/balance-thread-guidelines), so I expect this reduced the likelihood of a response from the balance team.
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The splash gun had its cost increased a couple of years ago, so the chances of them lowering it again are pretty slim.
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Problem : Seraphim gun Splash upgrade is never used because it's too costly compared to all other upgrade. The use for this upgrade would be between T2 and T3 but the cost is after T3 and at that point there is too much risk on the acu to even use it effectively.
There is also not a "clutch factor" like a Mazer/TP could have or a big increase of survivability that would make building it a good choice even if not used later in the game.
Showcase : I can't really find a game to link where the upgrade is even built. Evn an old game (which i don't have the number unfortunately) that was played by yudi they got T3 instead of gun cause it gave more hp and ended up being more valuable than gunS
Did some testing in sandbox. I was able to build Mazer faster on a T2 eco (5 T2pgen and around 20 T1pgen+hydro, 7 capped T2 mex and 4 more T1 mexes) then it was to build gun splash. The only difference is that mazor cost more E than mass, has shorter build time and perform twice better.
Solution : Try either reducing the cost and the time to build to make it more affordable so it's actually built on com between T2/T3 and have an impact or lower heavely it's cost but also it's power and make it more of a second gun upgrade effective at T2 but falling when fighting T3
Justify the solution :
1st Solution : The reason why it's not build is it's cost (more than T3 HQ) and build time. The only upgrades that take more time on a com are T3 (but is also way cheaper) and Billy nuke with advanced regen taking same time.
Making it faster and cost cheaper would allow it to be built as an alternative to go instead of T3 and T3 eco to push a potential advantageous situation and close the game but with the drawback of sacrifying scaling if it fail.2nd Solution : Completly change it's use. Making it way cheaper and still lowering it's build time so it can be built at early T2 eco. Less powerful and less impact but could help prevent turtling and would promote more agressiveness.
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We have discussed this but haven't reached a conclusion for now. It's unlikely it will be included in the next patch. Maybe one after that.
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Thank You
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Did some testing in sandbox. I was able to build Mazer faster on a T2 eco (5 T2pgen and around 20 T1pgen+hydro, 7 capped T2 mex and 4 more T1 mexes) then it was to build gun splash. The only difference is that mazor cost more E than mass, has shorter build time and perform twice better.
This I don't understand. Mazor costs almost twice as much energy and 1.4k less mass. You can build two fewer T2 pgens, still produce enough e for an upgrade and have 1k mass left over. Build time is irrelevant since it takes just 8 t1 engies on assist to drain 2.5k e. How did you fail to make second gun before you'd make mazer?
Even including cost of first gun you'd be ahead, and you usually get gun for Cybran mazer anyway.
