@h-master I consider Dual Gap an interesting and dynamic map in the sense that many different strategies can lead to victory. As opposed to most other maps, Dual Gap does not have a defined meta. Ask a group of random Dual Gap players their favourite playstyle, and you'll be surprised with the variety in their responses that aren't simply ecoing up. If the players co-operate, they can easily beat the "stale Dual Gap eco meta" with quick T2 air plays into the main bases. Furthermore, strat rush, nuke rush, notha rush and t3 arty rush are examples of more strategies that can be found on Dual Gap. Not only this, but standard land pushes through middle (which can be done in many different ways) have shown to be exceedingly successful, along with attempting to attain naval domination and destroying the turtle bases from the sea.

Compare this to the generic t1/t2 spam + gun ACU gameplay you'll find on the more generally "accepted" teamgame maps, like Wonder, Canis, Hilly Plateau, and Pyramid. You'll find that Dual Gap is infinitely more interesting than whatever else everyone plays.

As the meta currently stands, sniper bots incentivize turtle gameplay. Why? The only counter to a ball of sniper bots + mobile shields + flak is a t2 arty base. Sniper bots hardcounter any mobile unit that isn't a sniper. Mobile t3 artillery deals too little damage to kill the shields. Well microed strats can deal with snipers + mobile aeon shields, but getting multiple strats is, depending on the map, not a very realistic option. And no, it's also not realistic to get a fatboy or megalith up in time.

Even then, strats just won't efficiently work against seraphim mobile shields, leaving you with the only option of making a t2 arty base. Being abused so hard to the point where you're forced to make an arty base is in no way fun or fair to play as it is hard to (timely) establish an arty base on some maps.

A small compromise is that aeon snipers can be dealt with by suiciding air units due to the fact the shields are weaker, but snipers + seraphim shields are absolutely broken. It would be nice to see these shields or snipers reworked.

my hq literally almost never dies and when it does its probably game over regardless so i dont get why you're crying so much

also t3 engineers have the same efficiency as t1 engineers, except they have more build range, health, and of course access to t2&t3. please stop spreading misinformation, it could be harmful

would also be nice if deploying units out of a carrier/czar wouldnt cancel the unit in production, nor the build queue as a whole

Why does no other faction have OC sacus??? Fix please!!! Why do aeon and cybran not have tml bois??? Fix please!!! Why can all sacus have a personal shield, but cybran cant???

Balance team, please fix.

boost t3 artillery fire rate by 100% when adjacent to a hydro

i agree t1 bombers are overpowered because they're too good at many different things, sniping engineers being one of them, but i dont think the proposed changes are good ideas

almost none of the attempts to describe the way factions play are 100% true.

UEF ranks 3rd in shield HP, and their land units at tech 2 and 4 are the squishiest across the board. Percivals are matched by bricks, so they don't stand out.
Cybran land units are slow at T2, loyalists are fast but they're matched by titans so they don't stand out. Cybran being stealthy is true
Aeon doesn't have highly specialized units. It's literally just the absolver
Seraphim is the most vague of them all. They're described to have "multi-purposed units" (what does that even mean?) and highly advanced units? Their mass costs and strength are comparable to other factions, with the small exceptions of the ilshavoh and mobile t3 shield

I would recommend sticking to describing a faction's lore and keeping it at that. It's too hard (impossible?) to give a short and concise gameplay description of each faction that actually fits it

All land units (except hover) should have reduced traction when moving on ice, causing tanks to slip around a lot, and sometimes even causing bipedal units to slip, fall and die

T1 bombers can:

• very efficiently snipe expanding engineers, outcome can be brutal, game-deciding (especially on transport maps)
• bomb pgens depending on faction matchup
• suicide bomb into t1 radars and be worth it, let alone t2
• suicide bomb into t1 armies and still be worth it most of the time with just one pass (hard to prevent)
• in 1v1, be spammed on large high-mass maps not only to drain opponent apm but can also quite easily kill its own mass cost in engineers, mexes and radars due to opponent reaction speed & intie travel time
• be spammed late-game to deal with (t4) land pushes somewhat efficiently

I think most of these t1 bomber strong points can be somewhat alleviated by increasing its costs. doing so won't interfere with any other unit interactions. it doesn't address the main problem as well as other solutions could, but I personally don't think that was the only issue with t1 bombers to begin with.

the best idea i can come up with to actually address early-game bombers without ruining them is to decrease their reload speed and/or maybe their flight speed (or remove their radar because why do they have a radar while inties dont?)

@lord_asmodeus said in Balance Patch 3750 - Feedback:

T1 bombers are good in t1 stage yes especially for engi snipe but with new engi mechanics lets wait and see if you can dodge easier.

What? Can you elaborate, i must've missed/forgotten something

ban snipers from the game

@thecore said in Restructure air by delaying tech 3 air:

Or maybe the meta needs to change, instead of letting the main air slot get to T3 Air at 9/10 mins mark scout to check if they are going T3 and push them hard with T2 Air.

yes that is quite literally the counter to t3 air rush meta, it's just that 99% of players are either bad or lazy

would also be nice if deploying units out of a carrier/czar wouldnt cancel the unit in production, nor the build queue as a whole

you can kill 2 player's bases by winning your navy, that's devastating enough. not to mention you'll get tens of thousands of mass to reclaim.
i don't think one player winning their navy should always translate to a win. this system is in effect with t3 air and it definitely has its issues

almost none of the attempts to describe the way factions play are 100% true.

UEF ranks 3rd in shield HP, and their land units at tech 2 and 4 are the squishiest across the board. Percivals are matched by bricks, so they don't stand out.
Cybran land units are slow at T2, loyalists are fast but they're matched by titans so they don't stand out. Cybran being stealthy is true
Aeon doesn't have highly specialized units. It's literally just the absolver
Seraphim is the most vague of them all. They're described to have "multi-purposed units" (what does that even mean?) and highly advanced units? Their mass costs and strength are comparable to other factions, with the small exceptions of the ilshavoh and mobile t3 shield

I would recommend sticking to describing a faction's lore and keeping it at that. It's too hard (impossible?) to give a short and concise gameplay description of each faction that actually fits it

Every 20km water S+ but setons is in "would rather draw" solely because 5% of the TMM players is gonna be better at it?

@ftxcommando then setons would be in E

@blodir said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:

@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:

@blodir u are correct. Perhaps i jumped the gun too soon. However i am deeply saddened by you not including me in the list of TOP TIER PROS 🥺🥺🥺:this_saddens_me::this_saddens_me:
:this_saddens_me:

Sorry I think ur really good but u insulted my thread so I couldn't bring myself to include u

i didnt mean to insult ur thread nor ur ideas in general i think this was a fun, creative and interactive way of garnering people's view on maps. clearly it worked as it received tons of traction

NOTE: Ndera was not worthy of B tier. After a second experience on this map, I'll have to drop it to C or D tier.

@xayo you forget snipers. Percies arent relevant to 2/4 factions even before T4