Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.
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@comradestryker
First of all, its 1200 mass per point defended (UEF t2 shield) as novax kill anything under a single t2 shield. It also required buildpower being avalable at every one of these points on the map, this takes time and increases cost.You should have a look at how the novax was used in that replay. No other unit in the game can replace the novax in that situation. A first novax on setons is always cost effective (The same can be said with nuke)
The game would not have been won without the novax. T3 arty is almost always worse, not better than novax on setons. The novax were more effective than the mavor at less cost. and had greater impact on game outcome.
Comparing the two once a single shield is up against a shielded base is stupid, they are for differrent things, and the novax is too good in its niche . T3 arty does not kill expanding engineers or moving cruisers. T3 arty does not snipe thigs like stealthed pgens built across the map. T3 arty does not provide omni vision and scouting. T3 arty does not have infintite range. T3 arty is more eggs in one basket making it easier to snipe. T3 arty takes longer to payoff and longer to build, making it easier to scout and counter. T3 arty cannot be split against multiple targets around the map. It is not cost effective to fire t3 arty at single mexes, but it is with novax.
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I wonder about a novax rework where it’s more of a t3 arty that rewards risky placement. Say the distance away from the station causes recharge rate to decrease but it would shoot essentially continuously right next to the station.
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I feel like that would require a massive rebalance. As it could make it so you will never get anywhere close to the opponents base with 1-2 novaxes.
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A thought I've had to rework the Novax was something like so:
- Make SMDs able to shoot at the satellites. (2 shots)
- Increase the intel and vision rings of the sat.
- Reduce the station cost by a significant amount. (36K -> 20K)
- Reduce the satellite cost. (10K -> 5k)
- One station can build multiple sats but if the station is destroyed, all sats that were constructed by that station get destroyed as well.
- Increase station HP. (9k -> 15K)
I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out, here.
I've thought about SMDs countering sats, before, though I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to balance that.
If that's the case, then the Sat needs to be far cheaper. 7.5K to counter 36K is probably not the way to balance that.Or a drastic change to an SMD needs to be made, too. But that would also have to keep in mind a Yolo, as well.
Mixing in a Sat with a Yolo is gonna be dreadful with these changes. So, yeah... I have no idea on how to rework something like this without breaking something else.Would you make the Novax a spammable unit? Or change it to match a game-ender type of thing? That is the question.
~ Stryker
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novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them
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@ftxcommando said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them
Yeah, you're right... That'd be just Nuke haven. Probably best to be left as is, then.
But...
Another thought I've had before was to grant T3 & T4 Arties the ability to target and destroy Satellites.
This change would make it so there is an option to counter them but without needing to Nerf or Buff either unit absurdly.This 'mechanic' is already in-game but it can't be pulled off because the Sat is untargetable.
Though you can see occasional Arty shells (Yolo Missiles too) collide with a Sat and destroy it.That'd be interesting. Though there would have to be a random chance to miss otherwise the Sat dying immediately to the first shell that is fired, well, that would be unbalanced.
Again... just another idea.
~ Stryker
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I like it how it is - relatively easy to defend high value areas against it, but it gives an option for gradual value over time, and has a very different role/use case to a T3 arti.
As for 1 t2 shield being able to defend against a novax, that's asking for a T4 unit costing 36k mass that can only attack ground units to be unable to kill a T2 ground unit that costs just 500 mass. If they're using the novax to break through a T2 shield just to kill a single mex then they're not getting much value from it due to how long it will take, and it gives you more time to fortify shields elsewhere
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The problem of Novax what it gives frustrating experience of opposite player. No much damage, but you cant do something with that and FORCED to panically build all your mexes.
This is really a trolling-sattelite, not defensive.
But maybe you should try to make it true-defensive?
How about:- dramatically increase vision radius
- huge reduce damage against shields
- increase damage against unshielded
So it can really helps in fights and sieges, but will not trolling mexes or SMDs making a frustrating experience.
Fighting is fun, building\scamming mexes is not. It is flagrantly, what the whole T4 unit is created for this
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@percithundercock said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
dramatically increase vision radius
huge reduce damage against shields
increase damage against unshieldedIt doesn't need increased damage. But maybe increase speed to make it a better scout. And make it so that it can't punch through a single T2 shield, perhaps.
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If one team builds Novax, and opposing team needs to invest two times more mass in shields and extra engineers, to counter it. Then first team is already "won". Mass ecomized should be enough, to win the game, if everything else is equal. Even if Novax does not kill anything or does not scout. But certainly Novax would still find something to kill, if nothing else, then military units, like croisers, or snipers etc. And surely novax would scout also. Aeon eye with 2 power generators is almost 10k mass. And Novax 36k mass. While Novax gives vision superficy ~16 times bigger. And Omni! And radar!
If I remember correctly, Novax used to have the same price as t3 static arty. Considering, that Novax has half the dps, but never misses, and gives massive scouting advantage, and has no range limit. It seems like correct price. Maybe still too cheap... So it would be alternative to t3 arty, that can scout and attck everything around bases, rather than bombard bases like t3 arty.
So I suggest to make Novax station two times more expensive in mass.
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@ftxcommando said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them
in LOUD SMDs can fire at satalites too, but it is a separate weapon that doesn't subtract from the missile count.
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Ideally, it needs a complete rework, where it cannot stray further than roughly 256 range from the control centre but has better weaponry to compensate
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@freedom_ said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
Ideally, it needs a complete rework, where it cannot stray further than roughly 256 range from the control centre but has better weaponry to compensate
That will literally do the opposite of what you want. It'll be similar as old scathis. Target in range = OP. Tqrget not in range = useless
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Also not getting the point of that design when the bigger role of novax is filling the air t4 hole for UEF not being another variant of t3 arty.
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Whats wrong with just decreasing its damage and allowing it to take advantage of ajacency for firerate increase.
Make the unit so that once surrounded by 4 t3 pgens it is as powerfull as it is now, but without them it is much weaker. This increases cost by 10K mass, time to build and makes it harder to defend the control center.
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@nooby said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
Make the unit so that once surrounded by 4 t3 pgens it is as powerfull as it is now, but without them it is much weaker. This increases cost by 10K mass, time to build and makes it harder to defend the control center.
It seems like good change, but not enough. Players need t3 power for other things also, so building it in specific location is not really added cost for Novax. If Novax would consume 10k power, then it would be added cost, but if adjacency would bring it totally down, then it would add almost nothing to the price as well. Having pgens aroud Novax would make it harder to protect in late (t4) artywar, but it is overpovered already much earlier. And all this would add to complexity. Just rising mass cost in important amount, might be better maybe.
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I'd posit that the novax isn't actually op, it's just really annoying to play against. Kinda like harms.
One thing that makes novax as annoying as they are is that they only cost 36k, making it pretty easy to just squeeze one in if you have the eco and like a minute of breathing time.
So how about we double the cost and dps of the novax? This would still be a nerf of course, but it would make a novax an investment on the same scale as a t3 arty, all of which cost around 70k as well. This would make it much harder to sneak one in, and as a result hopefully much less annoying.
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The novax building is a pretty large footprint so requireing t3 power around it does not make it fit into your air grid niceley. I also like the idea of it needing power to fire. Any thoughts on drawing so much power (~ 20K?) for its short beam duration it needs E storage to fire like the eye?.
On it being annoying a large problem is the APM required to use vs APM required to counter - building shields, reclaiming pgens, protecting engineers.
On large maps like sentons it would still be built over t3 arty at higher cost, its just too usefull, but it would give more time to prepare and scout. I agree that part of the problem is the cost and how easy it is to build one pretty fast.
If it is not OP why are they built so often in higher level 1200+ rating ~ 1700 avg rating sentons games? There is almost always one or more built. There is never t3 arty built. It is also common to see two or three from one team.
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It's obvious it's meant to fill the T4 air role for UEF but no other T4 air unit can hover indefinitely over your base. Add a method(s) to destroy it, e.g., SMD, nuke, another Novax, and balance it from there.
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@thewheelie said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
@freedom_ said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
Ideally, it needs a complete rework, where it cannot stray further than roughly 256 range from the control centre but has better weaponry to compensate
That will literally do the opposite of what you want. It'll be similar as old scathis. Target in range = OP. Tqrget not in range = useless
What I want is the novax just deleted from the game.
