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Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.

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  • T Offline
    TheVVheelboy
    last edited by 2 Dec 2022, 22:39

    I feel like that would require a massive rebalance. As it could make it so you will never get anywhere close to the opponents base with 1-2 novaxes.

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    • C Offline
      ComradeStryker
      last edited by ComradeStryker 12 Mar 2022, 00:15 3 Dec 2022, 00:06

      A thought I've had to rework the Novax was something like so:

      • Make SMDs able to shoot at the satellites. (2 shots)
      • Increase the intel and vision rings of the sat.
      • Reduce the station cost by a significant amount. (36K -> 20K)
      • Reduce the satellite cost. (10K -> 5k)
      • One station can build multiple sats but if the station is destroyed, all sats that were constructed by that station get destroyed as well.
      • Increase station HP. (9k -> 15K)

      I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out, here.
      I've thought about SMDs countering sats, before, though I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to balance that.
      If that's the case, then the Sat needs to be far cheaper. 7.5K to counter 36K is probably not the way to balance that.

      Or a drastic change to an SMD needs to be made, too. But that would also have to keep in mind a Yolo, as well.
      Mixing in a Sat with a Yolo is gonna be dreadful with these changes. So, yeah... I have no idea on how to rework something like this without breaking something else.

      Would you make the Novax a spammable unit? Or change it to match a game-ender type of thing? That is the question.


      ~ Stryker

      ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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      • F Offline
        FtXCommando
        last edited by 3 Dec 2022, 00:15

        novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them

        C J 2 Replies Last reply 3 Dec 2022, 00:24 Reply Quote 3
        • C Offline
          ComradeStryker @FtXCommando
          last edited by ComradeStryker 12 Mar 2022, 00:36 3 Dec 2022, 00:24

          @ftxcommando said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

          novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them

          Yeah, you're right... That'd be just Nuke haven. Probably best to be left as is, then.
          But...


          Another thought I've had before was to grant T3 & T4 Arties the ability to target and destroy Satellites.
          This change would make it so there is an option to counter them but without needing to Nerf or Buff either unit absurdly.

          This 'mechanic' is already in-game but it can't be pulled off because the Sat is untargetable.
          Though you can see occasional Arty shells (Yolo Missiles too) collide with a Sat and destroy it.

          That'd be interesting. Though there would have to be a random chance to miss otherwise the Sat dying immediately to the first shell that is fired, well, that would be unbalanced.

          Again... just another idea.


          ~ Stryker

          ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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          • M Offline
            maudlin27
            last edited by maudlin27 12 Mar 2022, 08:50 3 Dec 2022, 08:48

            I like it how it is - relatively easy to defend high value areas against it, but it gives an option for gradual value over time, and has a very different role/use case to a T3 arti.

            As for 1 t2 shield being able to defend against a novax, that's asking for a T4 unit costing 36k mass that can only attack ground units to be unable to kill a T2 ground unit that costs just 500 mass. If they're using the novax to break through a T2 shield just to kill a single mex then they're not getting much value from it due to how long it will take, and it gives you more time to fortify shields elsewhere

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            • P Offline
              PerciThundercock
              last edited by PerciThundercock 12 Mar 2022, 12:45 3 Dec 2022, 12:38

              The problem of Novax what it gives frustrating experience of opposite player. No much damage, but you cant do something with that and FORCED to panically build all your mexes.

              This is really a trolling-sattelite, not defensive.

              But maybe you should try to make it true-defensive?
              How about:

              • dramatically increase vision radius
              • huge reduce damage against shields
              • increase damage against unshielded

              So it can really helps in fights and sieges, but will not trolling mexes or SMDs making a frustrating experience.
              Fighting is fun, building\scamming mexes is not. It is flagrantly, what the whole T4 unit is created for this 😃

              C 1 Reply Last reply 4 Dec 2022, 08:19 Reply Quote 1
              • C Offline
                Cyborg16 @PerciThundercock
                last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 08:19

                @percithundercock said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                dramatically increase vision radius
                huge reduce damage against shields
                increase damage against unshielded

                It doesn't need increased damage. But maybe increase speed to make it a better scout. And make it so that it can't punch through a single T2 shield, perhaps.

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                • W Offline
                  wikingest
                  last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 10:15

                  If one team builds Novax, and opposing team needs to invest two times more mass in shields and extra engineers, to counter it. Then first team is already "won". Mass ecomized should be enough, to win the game, if everything else is equal. Even if Novax does not kill anything or does not scout. But certainly Novax would still find something to kill, if nothing else, then military units, like croisers, or snipers etc. And surely novax would scout also. Aeon eye with 2 power generators is almost 10k mass. And Novax 36k mass. While Novax gives vision superficy ~16 times bigger. And Omni! And radar!

                  If I remember correctly, Novax used to have the same price as t3 static arty. Considering, that Novax has half the dps, but never misses, and gives massive scouting advantage, and has no range limit. It seems like correct price. Maybe still too cheap... So it would be alternative to t3 arty, that can scout and attck everything around bases, rather than bombard bases like t3 arty.

                  So I suggest to make Novax station two times more expensive in mass.

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                  • J Offline
                    Jip @FtXCommando
                    last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 10:20

                    @ftxcommando said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                    novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them

                    in LOUD SMDs can fire at satalites too, but it is a separate weapon that doesn't subtract from the missile count.

                    A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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                    • F Offline
                      Freedom_
                      last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 12:46

                      Ideally, it needs a complete rework, where it cannot stray further than roughly 256 range from the control centre but has better weaponry to compensate

                      T 1 Reply Last reply 4 Dec 2022, 13:37 Reply Quote 0
                      • T Offline
                        TheWeakie @Freedom_
                        last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 13:37

                        @freedom_ said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                        Ideally, it needs a complete rework, where it cannot stray further than roughly 256 range from the control centre but has better weaponry to compensate

                        That will literally do the opposite of what you want. It'll be similar as old scathis. Target in range = OP. Tqrget not in range = useless

                        F 1 Reply Last reply 4 Dec 2022, 15:42 Reply Quote 0
                        • F Offline
                          FtXCommando
                          last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 13:45

                          Also not getting the point of that design when the bigger role of novax is filling the air t4 hole for UEF not being another variant of t3 arty.

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                          • N Offline
                            Nooby
                            last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 13:48

                            Whats wrong with just decreasing its damage and allowing it to take advantage of ajacency for firerate increase.

                            Make the unit so that once surrounded by 4 t3 pgens it is as powerfull as it is now, but without them it is much weaker. This increases cost by 10K mass, time to build and makes it harder to defend the control center.

                            W T 2 Replies Last reply 4 Dec 2022, 14:14 Reply Quote 0
                            • W Offline
                              wikingest @Nooby
                              last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 14:14

                              @nooby said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                              Make the unit so that once surrounded by 4 t3 pgens it is as powerfull as it is now, but without them it is much weaker. This increases cost by 10K mass, time to build and makes it harder to defend the control center.

                              It seems like good change, but not enough. Players need t3 power for other things also, so building it in specific location is not really added cost for Novax. If Novax would consume 10k power, then it would be added cost, but if adjacency would bring it totally down, then it would add almost nothing to the price as well. Having pgens aroud Novax would make it harder to protect in late (t4) artywar, but it is overpovered already much earlier. And all this would add to complexity. Just rising mass cost in important amount, might be better maybe.

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                              • C Offline
                                CheeseBerry
                                last edited by CheeseBerry 12 Apr 2022, 14:17 4 Dec 2022, 14:15

                                I'd posit that the novax isn't actually op, it's just really annoying to play against. Kinda like harms.

                                One thing that makes novax as annoying as they are is that they only cost 36k, making it pretty easy to just squeeze one in if you have the eco and like a minute of breathing time.

                                So how about we double the cost and dps of the novax? This would still be a nerf of course, but it would make a novax an investment on the same scale as a t3 arty, all of which cost around 70k as well. This would make it much harder to sneak one in, and as a result hopefully much less annoying.

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                                • N Offline
                                  Nooby
                                  last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 15:26

                                  The novax building is a pretty large footprint so requireing t3 power around it does not make it fit into your air grid niceley. I also like the idea of it needing power to fire. Any thoughts on drawing so much power (~ 20K?) for its short beam duration it needs E storage to fire like the eye?.

                                  On it being annoying a large problem is the APM required to use vs APM required to counter - building shields, reclaiming pgens, protecting engineers.

                                  On large maps like sentons it would still be built over t3 arty at higher cost, its just too usefull, but it would give more time to prepare and scout. I agree that part of the problem is the cost and how easy it is to build one pretty fast.

                                  If it is not OP why are they built so often in higher level 1200+ rating ~ 1700 avg rating sentons games? There is almost always one or more built. There is never t3 arty built. It is also common to see two or three from one team.

                                  C F 2 Replies Last reply 4 Dec 2022, 15:55 Reply Quote 0
                                  • S Offline
                                    STlNG
                                    last edited by STlNG 12 Apr 2022, 15:30 4 Dec 2022, 15:28

                                    It's obvious it's meant to fill the T4 air role for UEF but no other T4 air unit can hover indefinitely over your base. Add a method(s) to destroy it, e.g., SMD, nuke, another Novax, and balance it from there.

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                                    • F Offline
                                      Freedom_ @TheWeakie
                                      last edited by Freedom_ 12 Apr 2022, 15:42 4 Dec 2022, 15:42

                                      @thewheelie said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                                      @freedom_ said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                                      Ideally, it needs a complete rework, where it cannot stray further than roughly 256 range from the control centre but has better weaponry to compensate

                                      That will literally do the opposite of what you want. It'll be similar as old scathis. Target in range = OP. Tqrget not in range = useless

                                      What I want is the novax just deleted from the game.

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                                      • C Offline
                                        CheeseBerry @Nooby
                                        last edited by CheeseBerry 12 Apr 2022, 15:56 4 Dec 2022, 15:55

                                        @nooby said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

                                        If it is not OP why are they built so often in higher level 1200+ rating ~ 1700 avg rating sentons games? There is almost always one or more built. There is never t3 arty built. It is also common to see two or three from one team.

                                        It's not op because you can shield every mex and your air grid on setons for the same cost it takes to build a novax, but you can do so multiple minutes later, making it effectively much cheaper.
                                        Or phrased differently: When a team is playing well against a novax, it has basically no impact for a long time, maybe ever.

                                        The problem is the "playing well" part, and the apm it requires, because if even one teammate doesn't shield their mexes/power in time, the novax will have lots of targets.

                                        But still, if you let your opponent spent 36k on a building that really doesn't do much for minutes after it is finished, and you don't win the game with your ~4 Battleship / 100 ASF advantage, that's kinda on you.

                                        Making a novax is like spamming subs or harms: It gets worse as a strategy the better your opponent is, but that doesn't make it fun gameplay.

                                        W 1 Reply Last reply 4 Dec 2022, 17:46 Reply Quote 1
                                        • A Offline
                                          Azraaa
                                          last edited by 4 Dec 2022, 16:02

                                          just remove it or make something that can shot them down and you have to rebuild them. Easy. 🙂

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