Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.

That'd be such a minor nerf as to be irrelevant. By the time you have a novax (or T3 arty for that matter) you have the power overflow to sustain it.

It's like T3 PD. Did you know that costs energy to fire? Yeah, no one does because it doesn't matter.

@deribus I knew.
But yeah, it's not super relevant, unless it was made to do damage based on how much power was consumed and was uncapped. That would be hilarious.

@jip said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

I just had a game vs a player that did this and they lost:

• https://replay.faforever.com/15171437

They're annoying, but really cheap to counter. And remember: if they spent 30K mass on a Novax, and you spent 10K on some shields, it means you have a 20K advantage.

You can not build shields around all map.

A single novax should be nerfed so it does not get through any factions t2 shield or cybrans t2 shield when upgraded once.

I also like the idea of novax needing significant energy to fire

Giving novax energy ajacency to get back some of its DPS is also an intresting idea - Mabie when fully surrouded by t3 pgens it has same dps as current

Take this setons replay: Lategame, mavor + multiple novax is really the ultimate game ender. The counter to mavor is to build power all about the map for the nuke subs and carrier strat bombers. However the novax can scout and kill these indifivual pgens really easily:

https://replay.faforever.com/18645999

The novax did far more damage that game than the mavor, and that game had multiple people much higher rated than you in it

Mavor alone does not win a double naval loss on setons

The rationalization of the Novax is to barrage shields to prevent them from refreshing / recharging.
Another point of it is to raid enemy structures on the outskirts of maps or structures that the enemy didn't bother to shield 25 minutes into a game.

To counter a Novax, a player just needs to spend about 600 mass on building T2 shields. Yes, that adds up, especially multiple shields and multiple players, but... by building 10, 20, or even 30, T2 shields to protect what's decently important means you've spent 6, 12, or 18 thousand mass and they spent 36 thousand mass. Either way, you're saving mass.
If they build a 2nd Novax... well, they should've built an Arty instead, honestly.

Once the Novax is countered, it's practically useless aside from tickling away at a shield - its Omni, radar, and vision radius is pitiful, especially for a satellite that supposedly orbits the map.

It's an experimental... If the damage is reduced; well... they may as well move the unit into the T3 stage.

A Nuke is far cheaper and far more deadly because it causes the enemy team to invest in SMDs to protect their bases. SMDs are far more expensive than a T2 shield (Obviously) - hence why the nukes are being nerfed.

A Novax does not need a nerf in my opinion as its cost, performance, and abilities are already at a disadvantage.
Again, its strength of it comes from being able to raid unshielded structures - which can be countered by proper scouting when the structure is being built.

~ Stryker

@comradestryker said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

its Omni, radar, and vision radius is pitiful, especially for a satellite that supposedly orbits the map

Surely intel should be a satellite's main strength? Why not buff this part.

@cyborg16 said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

@comradestryker said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

its Omni, radar, and vision radius is pitiful, especially for a satellite that supposedly orbits the map

Surely intel should be a satellite's main strength? Why not buff this part.

I agree, it's basically a really expensive Eye that isn't anywhere as useful.
But, that's up to Tagada to change.

~ Stryker

@comradestryker
First of all, its 1200 mass per point defended (UEF t2 shield) as novax kill anything under a single t2 shield. It also required buildpower being avalable at every one of these points on the map, this takes time and increases cost.

You should have a look at how the novax was used in that replay. No other unit in the game can replace the novax in that situation. A first novax on setons is always cost effective (The same can be said with nuke)

The game would not have been won without the novax. T3 arty is almost always worse, not better than novax on setons. The novax were more effective than the mavor at less cost. and had greater impact on game outcome.

Comparing the two once a single shield is up against a shielded base is stupid, they are for differrent things, and the novax is too good in its niche . T3 arty does not kill expanding engineers or moving cruisers. T3 arty does not snipe thigs like stealthed pgens built across the map. T3 arty does not provide omni vision and scouting. T3 arty does not have infintite range. T3 arty is more eggs in one basket making it easier to snipe. T3 arty takes longer to payoff and longer to build, making it easier to scout and counter. T3 arty cannot be split against multiple targets around the map. It is not cost effective to fire t3 arty at single mexes, but it is with novax.

I wonder about a novax rework where it’s more of a t3 arty that rewards risky placement. Say the distance away from the station causes recharge rate to decrease but it would shoot essentially continuously right next to the station.

I feel like that would require a massive rebalance. As it could make it so you will never get anywhere close to the opponents base with 1-2 novaxes.

A thought I've had to rework the Novax was something like so:

• Make SMDs able to shoot at the satellites. (2 shots)
• Increase the intel and vision rings of the sat.
• Reduce the station cost by a significant amount. (36K -> 20K)
• Reduce the satellite cost. (10K -> 5k)
• One station can build multiple sats but if the station is destroyed, all sats that were constructed by that station get destroyed as well.
• Increase station HP. (9k -> 15K)

I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out, here.
I've thought about SMDs countering sats, before, though I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to balance that.
If that's the case, then the Sat needs to be far cheaper. 7.5K to counter 36K is probably not the way to balance that.

Or a drastic change to an SMD needs to be made, too. But that would also have to keep in mind a Yolo, as well.
Mixing in a Sat with a Yolo is gonna be dreadful with these changes. So, yeah... I have no idea on how to rework something like this without breaking something else.

Would you make the Novax a spammable unit? Or change it to match a game-ender type of thing? That is the question.

~ Stryker

novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them

@ftxcommando said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them

Yeah, you're right... That'd be just Nuke haven. Probably best to be left as is, then.
But...

Another thought I've had before was to grant T3 & T4 Arties the ability to target and destroy Satellites.
This change would make it so there is an option to counter them but without needing to Nerf or Buff either unit absurdly.

This 'mechanic' is already in-game but it can't be pulled off because the Sat is untargetable.
Though you can see occasional Arty shells (Yolo Missiles too) collide with a Sat and destroy it.

That'd be interesting. Though there would have to be a random chance to miss otherwise the Sat dying immediately to the first shell that is fired, well, that would be unbalanced.

Again... just another idea.

~ Stryker

I like it how it is - relatively easy to defend high value areas against it, but it gives an option for gradual value over time, and has a very different role/use case to a T3 arti.

As for 1 t2 shield being able to defend against a novax, that's asking for a T4 unit costing 36k mass that can only attack ground units to be unable to kill a T2 ground unit that costs just 500 mass. If they're using the novax to break through a T2 shield just to kill a single mex then they're not getting much value from it due to how long it will take, and it gives you more time to fortify shields elsewhere

The problem of Novax what it gives frustrating experience of opposite player. No much damage, but you cant do something with that and FORCED to panically build all your mexes.

This is really a trolling-sattelite, not defensive.

But maybe you should try to make it true-defensive?
How about:

• dramatically increase vision radius
• huge reduce damage against shields
• increase damage against unshielded

So it can really helps in fights and sieges, but will not trolling mexes or SMDs making a frustrating experience.
Fighting is fun, building\scamming mexes is not. It is flagrantly, what the whole T4 unit is created for this

@percithundercock said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

dramatically increase vision radius
huge reduce damage against shields
increase damage against unshielded

It doesn't need increased damage. But maybe increase speed to make it a better scout. And make it so that it can't punch through a single T2 shield, perhaps.

If one team builds Novax, and opposing team needs to invest two times more mass in shields and extra engineers, to counter it. Then first team is already "won". Mass ecomized should be enough, to win the game, if everything else is equal. Even if Novax does not kill anything or does not scout. But certainly Novax would still find something to kill, if nothing else, then military units, like croisers, or snipers etc. And surely novax would scout also. Aeon eye with 2 power generators is almost 10k mass. And Novax 36k mass. While Novax gives vision superficy ~16 times bigger. And Omni! And radar!

If I remember correctly, Novax used to have the same price as t3 static arty. Considering, that Novax has half the dps, but never misses, and gives massive scouting advantage, and has no range limit. It seems like correct price. Maybe still too cheap... So it would be alternative to t3 arty, that can scout and attck everything around bases, rather than bombard bases like t3 arty.

So I suggest to make Novax station two times more expensive in mass.

@ftxcommando said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:

novax causing smds to be shot is just asking for cheese nukes to win games and the other changes don’t even work to make novax more fun or unique it’s just trying to make it easier to stack a death ball of them

in LOUD SMDs can fire at satalites too, but it is a separate weapon that doesn't subtract from the missile count.