Another Novax conversation
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@FtXCommando said in Another Novax conversation:
If your best use case of 36k mass in your games is making a tool to eat thru the 7k hp of a t3 mex and the 9k hp mass of a t2 shield over the span of 75 seconds then you probably should have started an actual game ender and finished it in 5-6 minutes.
72k mass novax would quite literally never get made.
I think some of us are fine with that.
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Its not really about being fine with it but it being balanced
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@Nuggets So they are balanced now?
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Perfect balance is checkers. Maybe the fact the pros don't use Novax much maybe means; its not majorly out of balance.
But for the sake of fun and the type of gameplay- I think it needs some upcoming adjustment. Remember:
- Old RAS SCUs?
- Vanilla Telemaeser?
- Vanilla, HARMS with destroyer range, better survivability and dps HARMs?
Those were all "balanced' by the numbers & opportunity cost originally- but because of the type of game-play they generated; they were changed.
Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
I'm just trying to highlight; from what's been done; its not only about balance & opportunity cost.
Simply put, and to quote another player @Cascade "Sats are Anti-Fun".
And that's why I really think they need a counter. Best of which, in my opinion is a:
- normally "disabled" player toggle
- on the smd to target the sats.
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Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
Is this actually true? If it is I've suddenly lost a whole lot of faith in FAF because what kind of elementary school BS is this lol.
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@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
Is this actually true? If it is I've suddenly lost a whole lot of faith in FAF because what kind of elementary school BS is this lol.
What are you talking about? This is kind of an exploit and can get you banned?
Imagine you are going to drop some t3 units and your enemy just builds a t1 fac under transport and they insta die -
@Nuggets said in Another Novax conversation:
@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
Is this actually true? If it is I've suddenly lost a whole lot of faith in FAF because what kind of elementary school BS is this lol.
What are you talking about? This is kind of an exploit and can get you banned?
Imagine you are going to drop some t3 units and your enemy just builds a t1 fac under transport and they insta dieNot to get off topic here but I would just say skill issue and that's coming from a 1300. Like seriously... Why drop so close to any builders lol.
Sounds like a rule that came into effect for pro-level players in 1v1 play. I have played 5,000 games in the last 6 years and had no clue this was even possible. Never even come across it until I saw this post. I think I've come across every other situation where someone could exploit and get banned but this one is a new one and I stand by what I said earlier that it's pretty weak lol.
What's next we're not allowed to build t1pd in our base because a mazercom won't be able to telly in there lol.
I can already imagine all the arguments against it in my head (from1.8k+ players only lol) but it all comes back to me thinking it's a cheap elementary rule that shouldn't be in the game but again that's not what the thread is about so I'll stop being off topic. I'm a nobody anyways and my opinion doesn't matter and I'm okay with that
I will however finally read all the bannable offenses because heaven forbid I get banned because I was building a factory in my base for some reason at the same time someone was trying to drop
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@Printer said in Another Novax conversation:
And that's why I really think they need a counter. Best of which, in my opinion is a:
normally "disabled" player toggle
on the smd to target the sats.This is such a powerful counter it's basically removing sats from the game. Every suggestion for the laser sat has been to remove it, that's why I recommend coming up with an actual rework so that Novax isn't a 36k mass artillery piece. Balance team agrees on that direction afaik, so it isn't unrealistic to rework it.
My favorite idea so far is making it have a powerful stun beam for buildings/T4s + less powerful AoE stun for T3/air when the main beam finishes. It would complement fatty, UEF T3 gunship spam, UEF lategame air fights (like how air T4s can help force air fights), Percies, navy, and maybe even UEF artillery since it can stun buildpower or shields idk. -
Keep sat as it is and just allow one per player as upper boundary. (And maybe reduce HP of central a bit OR reduce sat movement speed)
Would solve the problems with it. -
Novax is really annoying for people because it's an apm and attention tax. The guy with the novax doesn't have to do much to make it do damage but the other guy has to shield a lot of stuff or they ignore it and just rebuild after which is also potentially a lot of actions. Also it is really nice to have when you are trying to kill shields in an arty war and it's highly microable in that scenario. It is very expensive but not enough that you won't see it. It gives a lot of intel as well just as a bonus. The attention tax would matter a lot more at lower and average levels and it's still annoying to deal with at higher levels.
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Another reasonable suggestion imo would be to reduce the travel speed, giving players a longer grace period to react, and also a turret speed reduction, currently the turrect speed is i think above 300 which is crazy fast, reducing turret speed would increase the time it takes to change targets wich is one of the annoying aspects of the novax, being instantly able to switch targets as they become available such as downed shields and engineers ect.
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None of this matters because nothing's going to change and nobody's going to do anything about it so what's the point of talking about it. Time for me to stop reading the forums and just play the game for what it is. Have fun y'all!!
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I feel like with the amount of time you've put into this thread you could have created a mod that makes the Novax different to demonstrate your thoughts. I once modified the Novax satellite to consume power similar to a t3 artillery but I wasn't sure how to stop the beam weapon when you ran out of power. Seemed like it would be a good way to stop people stacking them easily.
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@Nomander said in Another Novax conversation:
@Printer said in Another Novax conversation:
And that's why .... ....a normally "disabled" player toggle, on the smd to target the sats.
This is such a powerful counter it's basically removing sats from the game. Every suggestion for the laser sat has been to remove it, that's why I recommend coming up with an actual rework so that Novax isn't a 36k mass artillery piece. Balance team agrees on that direction afaik, so it isn't unrealistic to rework it.
But a powerful counter is a simple one. Simple isn't bad. Having a simple APM counter, to a simple APM unit; is elegant.
I also didnt mean an SMD-shootdown would = the sat dead and Novax center useless.
My suggestion hinged also on making the SAT re-build-able at the Novax center. Also, since an SMD missle costs 3.6k mass (and the launcher is 7.5k mass) so, the SAT might need to get a lower mass cost to compensate.Besides, the player doesn't have to shoot it down. Just has the choice to or not.
@relentless said in Another Novax conversation:
I feel like with the amount of time you've put into this thread you could have created a mod that makes the Novax different to demonstrate your thoughts. I once modified the Novax satellite to consume power similar to a t3 artillery but I wasn't sure how to stop the beam weapon when you ran out of power. Seemed like it would be a good way to stop people stacking them easily.
- You can try it out via the BlackOps mod I think, it allows sats to be shot down
- Power drain is great idea
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@Printer said in Another Novax conversation:
But a powerful counter is a simple one. Simple isn't bad. Having a simple APM counter, to a simple APM unit; is elegant.
I also didnt mean an SMD-shootdown would = the sat dead and Novax center useless.
My suggestion hinged also on making the SAT re-build-able at the Novax center. Also, since an SMD missle costs 3.6k mass (and the launcher is 7.5k mass) so, the SAT might need to get a lower mass cost to compensate.Besides, the player doesn't have to shoot it down. Just has the choice to or not.
Sat is already rebuildable. This is because it can block nukes (intentional) or get RNG hit by artillery (consequence of the simulation). The problem with SMD shooting down sats is that it begins to compete with nuke in terms of what its defense is, and you might as well have a nuke instead of a sat if you must avoid SMD.
Ok so make it super cheap to rebuild: now it blocks nukes easily and drains SMD quickly
Ok so make it build slowly but cheap, it's basically an SMD missile: how are you ever going to get 36k mass killed - 3.6k per sat downed with this unit that takes forever to even rebuild. You can't even assist your own arty because every enemy target will have an SMD. -
Add one time use T4 anti-sat launchers.
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@Nomander said in Another Novax conversation:
Sat is already rebuildable. This is because it can block nukes (intentional) or get RNG hit by artillery (consequence of the simulation).
Wow, I didn't know that. TY-
The problem with SMD shooting down sats is that it begins to compete with nuke in terms of what its defense is, and you might as well have a nuke instead of a sat if you must avoid SMD.
Ok so make it super cheap to rebuild: now it blocks nukes easily and drains SMD quickly
Ok so make it build slowly but cheap, it's basically an SMD missile: how are you ever going to get 36k mass killed - 3.6k per sat downed with this unit that takes forever to even rebuild. You can't even assist your own arty because every enemy target will have an SMD.From my view, your second two scenarios (super cheap vs slowly built); are minor issues- because you can correct them just by adjusting cost.
But I think your first point about SMD having (2) jobs in "what the point of its defense is"; makes sense but is multi-purposing an SMD really that bad?
And in my proposed scenario;
- OBVIOUSLY the player does NOT need build the SMD if they don't want it to shoot down the SAT.
- Plus, if an SMD shoot down toggle exists the player does NOT need to use it.
My contention is, and I think still stands reasonably in light of your objections, that SATs do not have an effective, appropriate counter- for players when they want it. This is not balanced. This is a hole. This needs fixing.