Another Novax conversation
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we need multiple sats per ground station. As many as we want. There is a mod that does this, make it part of the main game.
There. Done. Problem solved.
Oh and SMD can shoot i down. One sat, one anit nuke. Easy peasy.
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The power of the Sat is not the damage, instead, their strength is their ability to disrupt the opposing team and cause initial mass drain. Such drain can quickly shift the balance of an equal fight, perhaps, just enough that the opponent on the sat side can grab crucial reclaim mass in, for example, a navy battle, quickly tilting the tide in their favor, generating a snowball effect.
Simplify the problem:
Say every player has an average of 12 mex
Of these 12 mex, they can be covered with ~8 t3 shield gens
Average cost of shield gens between factions = 3390 mass8 shield gens x 4 players on opposing team = 24 shield gens required
24 x 3390 = 108,480 mass drain on the opposing team.
Granted, there may be maps where half the shield gens may suffice, thus 54,240 mass drain...
(108,480 + 54,240)/2 = average mass drain of 81,360.
This does not even consider sunk costs to power those shields and more.
So set the price of a sat to be equal to their mass drain on the enemy team, since they are about disruption. A good sat user will find creative ways to overcome this shield counter.
~72k - 81k should be a fine new price.
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@Mr_Blastman
To use your own numbers for mexes, but doing a more efficient replacement of T3 shield with T2 shield with an average cost of 600 mass
8 shield gens x 4 players on opposing team = 24 shield gens required
24 x 600 = 14,400
That leaves c.21k for a gateway with 3 RAS SACUs which both give more than enough power to cover the shields, and generate extra resources to more than compensate for the very slow rate at which the novax could kill the t2 mexes (or 2 RAS SACUs assuming you have an air player that wants some t3 shielding to cover their air grid).It's annoying to counter, because you have to build all those shields quickly enough, rebuild any shields and mexes if they decide to target them, increase the shielding if they get a second novax, and have issues if you have fatboys or low health high cost unshielded units you want to attack with. 72-81k cost would make it completely unusuable and you'd be better off getting t3 arti or more units or eco.
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@maudlin27 said in Another Novax conversation:
@Mr_Blastman
To use your own numbers for mexes, but doing a more efficient replacement of T3 shield with T2 shield with an average cost of 600 mass
8 shield gens x 4 players on opposing team = 24 shield gens required
24 x 600 = 14,400
That leaves c.21k for a gateway with 3 RAS SACUs which both give more than enough power to cover the shields, and generate extra resources to more than compensate for the very slow rate at which the novax could kill the t2 mexes (or 2 RAS SACUs assuming you have an air player that wants some t3 shielding to cover their air grid).It's annoying to counter, because you have to build all those shields quickly enough, rebuild any shields and mexes if they decide to target them, increase the shielding if they get a second novax, and have issues if you have fatboys or low health high cost unshielded units you want to attack with. 72-81k cost would make it completely unusuable and you'd be better off getting t3 arti or more units or eco.
T2 shields by themselves are generally wholly uneffective at stopping sats.
They need to be bumped, substantially in price, to reflect their disruptive ability to the other team.
They also have effective uses beyond simply killing a mex or pgen.
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If your best use case of 36k mass in your games is making a tool to eat thru the 7k hp of a t3 mex and the 9k hp mass of a t2 shield over the span of 75 seconds then you probably should have started an actual game ender and finished it in 5-6 minutes.
72k mass novax would quite literally never get made.
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@FtXCommando said in Another Novax conversation:
If your best use case of 36k mass in your games is making a tool to eat thru the 7k hp of a t3 mex and the 9k hp mass of a t2 shield over the span of 75 seconds then you probably should have started an actual game ender and finished it in 5-6 minutes.
72k mass novax would quite literally never get made.
I think some of us are fine with that.
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Its not really about being fine with it but it being balanced
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@Nuggets So they are balanced now?
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Perfect balance is checkers. Maybe the fact the pros don't use Novax much maybe means; its not majorly out of balance.
But for the sake of fun and the type of gameplay- I think it needs some upcoming adjustment. Remember:
- Old RAS SCUs?
- Vanilla Telemaeser?
- Vanilla, HARMS with destroyer range, better survivability and dps HARMs?
Those were all "balanced' by the numbers & opportunity cost originally- but because of the type of game-play they generated; they were changed.
Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
I'm just trying to highlight; from what's been done; its not only about balance & opportunity cost.
Simply put, and to quote another player @Cascade "Sats are Anti-Fun".
And that's why I really think they need a counter. Best of which, in my opinion is a:
- normally "disabled" player toggle
- on the smd to target the sats.
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Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
Is this actually true? If it is I've suddenly lost a whole lot of faith in FAF because what kind of elementary school BS is this lol.
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@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
Is this actually true? If it is I've suddenly lost a whole lot of faith in FAF because what kind of elementary school BS is this lol.
What are you talking about? This is kind of an exploit and can get you banned?
Imagine you are going to drop some t3 units and your enemy just builds a t1 fac under transport and they insta die -
@Nuggets said in Another Novax conversation:
@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
Or how about some of the rules we have in the community; like "no building a factory under a dropping transport" - this works amazingly well against drops - but its bannable.
Is this actually true? If it is I've suddenly lost a whole lot of faith in FAF because what kind of elementary school BS is this lol.
What are you talking about? This is kind of an exploit and can get you banned?
Imagine you are going to drop some t3 units and your enemy just builds a t1 fac under transport and they insta dieNot to get off topic here but I would just say skill issue and that's coming from a 1300. Like seriously... Why drop so close to any builders lol.
Sounds like a rule that came into effect for pro-level players in 1v1 play. I have played 5,000 games in the last 6 years and had no clue this was even possible. Never even come across it until I saw this post. I think I've come across every other situation where someone could exploit and get banned but this one is a new one and I stand by what I said earlier that it's pretty weak lol.
What's next we're not allowed to build t1pd in our base because a mazercom won't be able to telly in there lol.
I can already imagine all the arguments against it in my head (from1.8k+ players only lol) but it all comes back to me thinking it's a cheap elementary rule that shouldn't be in the game but again that's not what the thread is about so I'll stop being off topic. I'm a nobody anyways and my opinion doesn't matter and I'm okay with that
I will however finally read all the bannable offenses because heaven forbid I get banned because I was building a factory in my base for some reason at the same time someone was trying to drop
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@Printer said in Another Novax conversation:
And that's why I really think they need a counter. Best of which, in my opinion is a:
normally "disabled" player toggle
on the smd to target the sats.This is such a powerful counter it's basically removing sats from the game. Every suggestion for the laser sat has been to remove it, that's why I recommend coming up with an actual rework so that Novax isn't a 36k mass artillery piece. Balance team agrees on that direction afaik, so it isn't unrealistic to rework it.
My favorite idea so far is making it have a powerful stun beam for buildings/T4s + less powerful AoE stun for T3/air when the main beam finishes. It would complement fatty, UEF T3 gunship spam, UEF lategame air fights (like how air T4s can help force air fights), Percies, navy, and maybe even UEF artillery since it can stun buildpower or shields idk.
