Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.
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@snagglefox said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
I've always thought making SMD able to shoot novax would be a nice meta changer. Gives UEF the ability to drain SMDs, changes up end-game strats a little. Too many SMDs for your yolo to get through? Try throwing some novax's. Either give the novax sat a decently long time to rebuild or add a cost to rebuilding it.
Idk. As they are, they're pretty boring & hit or miss. Either you get them early enough without being spotted and they wreak havoc for a while, or they're not that great because everyone has shields already. I think they could be far more interesting. Then again, I guess most experimentals are pretty boring in the end.
I generally agree with this. Honestly I quite dislike the Novax. Regardless of how good it is in a given game it is always annoying and horrendously boring. It does not feel good for gameplay regardless of the map or situation. Arguably a creatively and well used sat is always op in Setons in particular - it forces 4 players to shield every mex they have + defend the air grid + add more shields and assist shields on smds. It often forces more build power to be built or at least moved from other tasks to accomplish this. It provides intel in a way that's arguably easier than the Aeon eye since you need a huge amount of energy to spam change the eye's location. You can precisely and permanently deny assistance on enemy navy factories in a way that you cannot do with any other unit. It can completely hard counter Cybran stealth navy where you just sit it over their navy killing their stealth boats, sonars, and any engies trying to reclaim while providing vision on anything that's still stealthed. It can force a reliance on ras bois to expand your eco. It doesn't have any range limitation like t3 arty does, a t3 arty on setons has to be built in a very exposed location towards the middle of the map.
Rant aside, it would be nice if there was a toggle options on SMDs to shoot down the Novax satellites and then the sat itself had a larger cost and time to be remade. Would give it counter play that's much better than spending a stupid amount on shields and build power everywhere on the map while leaving you more open to nukes if you choose to use an smd charge to shoot it down.
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In LOUD we've had the SMD able to shoot down satellites for years - with a separate weapon that doesn't drain the SMD. It contained the Novax, at least in terms of it just sitting overhead without any challenge. However, as I mentioned earlier on, this just shifted the meta for it, to one of area denial, and the same fundamental gameplay issue continues to exist. The Novax can effectively seal a player into his shielded base, and even trying to escape using mobile shields is not effective in breaking that blockade.
I imagine, that as long as the Novax continues to exist, it should be considered a need to have some kind of anti-sat units and/or weapon, that can effectively counter it. The Black Ops SMD solution is, as mentioned above, somewhat effective, but not entirely so.
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@jip the replay desynced after bottom air got killed, but this replay where the novax killed ~250k mass and completely obliterated bottomss economy, sniped a comm, helped finish off another, completely destroyed bottom airs powergrid, forced building shields everywhere and more is supposed to prove they are easy to counter? That game was lost by top for many reasons, but the novax wasn't one of them. Of course in this game he hit diminishing return, and investing in nukes after a couple of novax would have been way better, there were also better targets after a while I think than what he used them for.
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@cptant but this replay where the novax killed ~250k mass and completely obliterated bottomss economy, sniped a comm, helped finish off another, completely destroyed bottom airs powergrid, forced building shields everywhere and more is supposed to prove they are easy to counter?
While he was building the novax the other guy on mid got on bottom navy got the battleships that destroyed 2 entire players + got nukes (since he was sera), got aircraft carriers that won air control + forced TMD all over the map
Go see the mass destroyed bye those battlheships...
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I once had a 70k mass killed atlantis on sentons. Time to nerf them theyre clearly op
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@thewheelie
A => B does not equal !B => !A. I did not claim this was proof they were OP, I said this is a weird case to showcase how they are not.
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I wasn't responding to you
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I've always wondered why the novax doesn't consume power when its firing similar to a SMD or something when they are building missiles.
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Requiring energy to fire the Novax seems like a good way to subtly nerf it. Just like how T3 Arty consume energy to fire. Please flame me if I'm mistake as I've not fact checked.
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That'd be such a minor nerf as to be irrelevant. By the time you have a novax (or T3 arty for that matter) you have the power overflow to sustain it.
It's like T3 PD. Did you know that costs energy to fire? Yeah, no one does because it doesn't matter.
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@deribus I knew.
But yeah, it's not super relevant, unless it was made to do damage based on how much power was consumed and was uncapped. That would be hilarious. -
@jip said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
I just had a game vs a player that did this and they lost:
They're annoying, but really cheap to counter. And remember: if they spent 30K mass on a Novax, and you spent 10K on some shields, it means you have a 20K advantage.
You can not build shields around all map.
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A single novax should be nerfed so it does not get through any factions t2 shield or cybrans t2 shield when upgraded once.
I also like the idea of novax needing significant energy to fire
Giving novax energy ajacency to get back some of its DPS is also an intresting idea - Mabie when fully surrouded by t3 pgens it has same dps as current
Take this setons replay: Lategame, mavor + multiple novax is really the ultimate game ender. The counter to mavor is to build power all about the map for the nuke subs and carrier strat bombers. However the novax can scout and kill these indifivual pgens really easily:
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The novax did far more damage that game than the mavor, and that game had multiple people much higher rated than you in it
Mavor alone does not win a double naval loss on setons
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The rationalization of the Novax is to barrage shields to prevent them from refreshing / recharging.
Another point of it is to raid enemy structures on the outskirts of maps or structures that the enemy didn't bother to shield 25 minutes into a game.To counter a Novax, a player just needs to spend about 600 mass on building T2 shields. Yes, that adds up, especially multiple shields and multiple players, but... by building 10, 20, or even 30, T2 shields to protect what's decently important means you've spent 6, 12, or 18 thousand mass and they spent 36 thousand mass. Either way, you're saving mass.
If they build a 2nd Novax... well, they should've built an Arty instead, honestly.Once the Novax is countered, it's practically useless aside from tickling away at a shield - its Omni, radar, and vision radius is pitiful, especially for a satellite that supposedly orbits the map.
It's an experimental... If the damage is reduced; well... they may as well move the unit into the T3 stage.
A Nuke is far cheaper and far more deadly because it causes the enemy team to invest in SMDs to protect their bases. SMDs are far more expensive than a T2 shield (Obviously) - hence why the nukes are being nerfed.
A Novax does not need a nerf in my opinion as its cost, performance, and abilities are already at a disadvantage.
Again, its strength of it comes from being able to raid unshielded structures - which can be countered by proper scouting when the structure is being built.
~ Stryker
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@comradestryker said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
its Omni, radar, and vision radius is pitiful, especially for a satellite that supposedly orbits the map
Surely intel should be a satellite's main strength? Why not buff this part.
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@cyborg16 said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
@comradestryker said in Novax needs to be nerfed, here's why.:
its Omni, radar, and vision radius is pitiful, especially for a satellite that supposedly orbits the map
Surely intel should be a satellite's main strength? Why not buff this part.
I agree, it's basically a really expensive Eye that isn't anywhere as useful.
But, that's up to Tagada to change.
~ Stryker
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@comradestryker
First of all, its 1200 mass per point defended (UEF t2 shield) as novax kill anything under a single t2 shield. It also required buildpower being avalable at every one of these points on the map, this takes time and increases cost.You should have a look at how the novax was used in that replay. No other unit in the game can replace the novax in that situation. A first novax on setons is always cost effective (The same can be said with nuke)
The game would not have been won without the novax. T3 arty is almost always worse, not better than novax on setons. The novax were more effective than the mavor at less cost. and had greater impact on game outcome.
Comparing the two once a single shield is up against a shielded base is stupid, they are for differrent things, and the novax is too good in its niche . T3 arty does not kill expanding engineers or moving cruisers. T3 arty does not snipe thigs like stealthed pgens built across the map. T3 arty does not provide omni vision and scouting. T3 arty does not have infintite range. T3 arty is more eggs in one basket making it easier to snipe. T3 arty takes longer to payoff and longer to build, making it easier to scout and counter. T3 arty cannot be split against multiple targets around the map. It is not cost effective to fire t3 arty at single mexes, but it is with novax.
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I wonder about a novax rework where it’s more of a t3 arty that rewards risky placement. Say the distance away from the station causes recharge rate to decrease but it would shoot essentially continuously right next to the station.
