Another Novax conversation

[Defiant]

I don't like SMD auotmatically attacking SAT because it would drain SMD. Could we make it a fire option?

[DDDX]

I see no problem with Novax. Absolutely none whatsoever.
It's a scouting unit. It provides vision. The laser is...meh.
If you are making 4-5 Novaxes to destroy your enemy, that enemy deserves to die. Because they weren't able to finish off an opponent who wasted resources on 4-5 Novax.
I mean...what were YOU doing when the enemy made Novaxes? Were you AFK? Why don't you have at least 3 artilleries pounding away at the enemy by the time he has 5 Novaxes up? I'd much rather defend against 5 Novaxes than 3 arties....

-- this is how you balance a unit. Now, if that was the Artemis satellite from Blackops...though, that thing costs A LOT to make, and it's like a Yolona or Paragon - why'd you allow the enemy to make one? NOW SUFFER!

[Nuggets]

@DDDX said in Another Novax conversation:

I see no problem with Novax. Absolutely none whatsoever.
It's a scouting unit. It provides vision. The laser is...meh.

This comment tells me you have either not played normal games or your opponent didn't know how to use novax.
Novax has almost 0 impact on a map like dual gap, but has game ending impact on a map like setons (or basically any map with spread out mex / bases).
Yeah if the laser just shoots a shield it has no impact. But thats now how you use it.

[DDDX]

@Nuggets and it tells me that if you are playing Setons and going 5 Novaxes on it, you must be playing vs AI.
A t2 shield, with some boosting, takes care of a Novax laser. Which you need to have anyways to neutralize strat bombers

...so why are you making Novaxes and not arty? Ok, you need 1 for scouting, great. What are other 4 for? Their insane DPS?

[Nuggets]

@DDDX said in Another Novax conversation:

@Nuggets and it tells me that if you are playing Setons and going 5 Novaxes on it, you must be playing vs AI.
A t2 shield, with some boosting, takes care of a Novax laser. Which you need to have anyways to neutralize strat bombers

...so why are you making Novaxes and not arty? Ok, you need 1 for scouting, great. What are other 4 for? Their insane DPS?

Thanks for confirming you dont know how to use them. Novax is not meant to break a base. If you go 5 novax, ofc its gonna break through, but then arty is prob more mass efficient.
The use-case of novax is to target non-shielded things. Such as literally every mex on the map, which is not in the main base. Thats why my comparison between setons - dual gap.
Then there is the additional use case with a novax combined with an arty. Vision plus the instant ability to target the shields that are being built or currently down.

Its impossible for a novax to not be worth it, if you can have it for over 1-2min

[KnownSniper]

Stick to your ai sentons gamplay man...

[TankenAbard]

I don't play UEF too much, but if I do and the opportunity presents itself, I will absolutely build a Novax over a duke 80% of the time. Cutting away at the fringes of a base and seeing what's going on has always been the better gamble more times than not. The cost makes it easier to deploy sooner, It definitely favors maps with spread out mass points too, and larger maps where response times are slower. Being on the receiving end is a drag, being slowly pulled apart until you're resource starved is demoralizing.

[DDDX]

@TankenAbard nobody said A Novax is a bad thing.
How about 5 of them? Total waste of resources.

[TankenAbard]

I also think that some people don't know that you can put engineers on shield towers to help keep them propped up. I rarely have issues in my main base against a Novax satellite because of this. For the cost of 5 Novax centers, you could do a lot more worth while things, absolutely.

[Nuggets]

The strength of novax is not to break a main base..

[IndexLibrorum]

Indeed, it's strength is to sap the will to live from the enemy team.

[Caliber]

@IndexLibrorum any game mechanic that makes the player lose the will to play or interest in the game is inherently bad by design and not a desirable trate to have or want.

[Caliber]

In my balance mod I gave the novax beam an energy drain of 8k per second, very high so the player has to at least support/monitor their energy or if a player chooses to spam multiple sats they will run a very high chance of e stall leaving them vulnerable to other threats.

[HotCheeseInRear]

Can we just reduce some of its stats back to vanilla values?

It used to do 3000 damage per beam now does 4860.
It used to have 10 vision now it has 60 this is a 36x increase in vision area.
It used to have 0 radar now it has 200.
It used to cost 800m 8000e to rebuild now its 8000m 160000e.
Air crash was 3000 now its 1000 (this nerf happened when air crash went through shields unreduced).

I would say split the difference-
Damage: 3900
Vision: 35
Radar: 100
Rebuild: 4000m 80000e
Air crash: 3000 (shields reduce air crash now)

This unit is so annoying and upsetting to play against even if its not unbalanced or OP.

[Arran]

@Sainse said in Another Novax conversation:

The way to overwhelm this is to give this opportunity to every fraction, which would be basically an already suggested idea of SMDs shooting down Novaxes.

@Blade_Walker said in Another Novax conversation:

If you are an old fart like me you might remember this game. So what if your nukes (not SMD) had a toggle to detonate in proximity to a novax ( could even work for any air Experimental?) Double the build cost and maybe time for a replacement Satellite.

Why not just have nukes be able to target Satellites? If a Satellite gets shot down by a nuke, that would look super cool!
Plus, even if your Satellite was shot down and reclaimed, factoring in the nuke cost, you're still out on top.
@Nomander said in Another Novax conversation:

I like this idea in terms of economic costs: 16.5k launcher + 12k missile + at least 6280 mass in pgens (34.78k total) vs 36k novax + at least 10k per rebuilt satellite
This is way better than the SMD idea where sats basically die for free (7.5k smd + 3.6k missile + 2k pgen = 13.1k total)

In terms of gameplay design it is a bit of an awkward solution with the targeting but at least both sides get something useful out of their investment if the nuke isn't used to intercept the sat so there's never useless mass wasted. Also balancewise imo it would be a poor, unsatisfying decision to make a nuke and use it on a sat that will kill its mass in 5 minutes instead of using the nuke to kill some poor player without smd (way faster mass killed/time).

Satellites also build faster than nukes so nuking a Satellite would be a desperation move, unless multiple Satellites get hit all at once.

Nukes shooting down Satellites would be cool, remove the element of "this is not a counterable unit", while still maintaining the same advantages building a Satellite already gives you.

[Ninrai]

The sat situation has become unbearable. It has a hit rate of 95+%, gives free intel, does not overkill. A few of them shuts down any air production bc you need to micro manage shields and lose eco from pushing shields. High accuracy makes it even hard to escape when locked on ACU and no water near by. It outpaces any engi you could use to get shields around mexes. Either you lose your air grid or mexes.
I get that is "weaker" and "cheaper" than an arty. However, unless oppo gets tons of shield anyway, the "weak" damage is enough to cause havoc. It's a lazy "low risk, high reward, fire and forget" unit.
One nerf would be that you cannot cue up targets with the sat so you need to micro manage it yourself.

I hear a lot of complaining (rightfully so) yet hardly anyone can give good reasons as to why it is well balanced atm beyond "don't let them get it". Same situation as with OP Sera TML Acu before nerf.
Is any serious change being considered beyond gathering thoughts in this thread?
I feel it is more dreaded than a Mavor at this point for a Mavor is supposed to end a game for its cost. Sats just make people want to play less FAF

[HotCheeseInRear]

Remove the radar and reduce the vision to vanilla values.

[waffelzNoob]

Give the Novax upgrade modules that add depth and complexity to a currently very basic and boring experimental.

1. Missile upgrade module. Unlocks 4 missile weapons that rain down hell from space. Costs: 4800 mass, 120k energy.
2. Strategic missile upgrade module. Drops a nuke directly below the novax. Costs: 24600 mass, 600k energy. Per missile: 4800 mass, 115k energy.
3. Double Satellite module. Spawns in a second satellite from the same Novax station. Costs: 12000 mass, 240k energy.
4. Tech 3 build suite upgrade module. Allows the novax to build anything underneath it. Costs: 2400 mass, 48k energy.