Another Novax conversation
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@Printer said in Another Novax conversation:
But a powerful counter is a simple one. Simple isn't bad. Having a simple APM counter, to a simple APM unit; is elegant.
I also didnt mean an SMD-shootdown would = the sat dead and Novax center useless.
My suggestion hinged also on making the SAT re-build-able at the Novax center. Also, since an SMD missle costs 3.6k mass (and the launcher is 7.5k mass) so, the SAT might need to get a lower mass cost to compensate.Besides, the player doesn't have to shoot it down. Just has the choice to or not.
Sat is already rebuildable. This is because it can block nukes (intentional) or get RNG hit by artillery (consequence of the simulation). The problem with SMD shooting down sats is that it begins to compete with nuke in terms of what its defense is, and you might as well have a nuke instead of a sat if you must avoid SMD.
Ok so make it super cheap to rebuild: now it blocks nukes easily and drains SMD quickly
Ok so make it build slowly but cheap, it's basically an SMD missile: how are you ever going to get 36k mass killed - 3.6k per sat downed with this unit that takes forever to even rebuild. You can't even assist your own arty because every enemy target will have an SMD. -
Add one time use T4 anti-sat launchers.
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@Nomander said in Another Novax conversation:
Sat is already rebuildable. This is because it can block nukes (intentional) or get RNG hit by artillery (consequence of the simulation).
Wow, I didn't know that. TY-
The problem with SMD shooting down sats is that it begins to compete with nuke in terms of what its defense is, and you might as well have a nuke instead of a sat if you must avoid SMD.
Ok so make it super cheap to rebuild: now it blocks nukes easily and drains SMD quickly
Ok so make it build slowly but cheap, it's basically an SMD missile: how are you ever going to get 36k mass killed - 3.6k per sat downed with this unit that takes forever to even rebuild. You can't even assist your own arty because every enemy target will have an SMD.From my view, your second two scenarios (super cheap vs slowly built); are minor issues- because you can correct them just by adjusting cost.
But I think your first point about SMD having (2) jobs in "what the point of its defense is"; makes sense but is multi-purposing an SMD really that bad?
And in my proposed scenario;
- OBVIOUSLY the player does NOT need build the SMD if they don't want it to shoot down the SAT.
- Plus, if an SMD shoot down toggle exists the player does NOT need to use it.
My contention is, and I think still stands reasonably in light of your objections, that SATs do not have an effective, appropriate counter- for players when they want it. This is not balanced. This is a hole. This needs fixing.
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Novax Cost = 36000 mass
Response to novax = cover everything with shields all mex and power facts everything needs cover.
T3 arty Cost UEF = 76000 mass
Response to T3 arty = cover important infrastructer with shields but not everything just the big stuff.
Novax cost less yet incures a higher cost response.
Novax can also be microed and arty cant, 100% acuracy and vision means you can target anything at anytime it becomes available to target.
Arty unless constant scout or eye ect you dont even know what your hitting or even if its being effective until the icon fades on target.
Not to mention novax unlimited range all for less than half the cost of an arty.
Fix = bring the novax in line with the cost of a T3 arty.
Yes the arty does more phisical damage but its not just about raw dps its about how effective it can be.
T3 arty is for punching through shields and novax can be used pretty much for anything, harassment, killing vulnerable structers and engineers, intel, defense ext.
Novax is far more versitile than just BIG GUN.
Therefor its cost should reflect its versatility rather than just its dps.
I use T3 arty for comparison as the Novax essentialy functions like an arty in which you create a base structer in a safe place and essentialy throw dps across the map like an arty and can only stop it by eliminating the base structure. aswell as it having the same if not more costly response to an arty which is to spam shields.
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@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
Yes the arty does more phisical damage but its not just about raw dps its about how effective it can be.
Arty is more effective than novax because it actually kills important things like smd/grids while novax forces out some t2 shields on smd/grids and then slowly kills t3 mex that get rebuilt shortly after. You don't need to shield every single t3 mex since t3 fabs beat novax in terms of economic advantage if the novax is just shooting t3 mex that are getting rebuilt constantly. Outlying random t3 pgens are even more efficient than T3 mex in HP/mass, especially UEF, so you shouldn't mind them getting novaxed either.
Frankly one of the biggest reasons to say t3 arty is worse is a bug where shield assist works while stalling so people just cheat the economic damage t3 arty inflicts. Rarely do people actually micro their shields or build enough shields to block T3 arty for free or cheap.
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@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
@FtXCommando My point was not to compare Novax to artillery because they have different functions.
@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
I use T3 arty for comparison as the Novax essentialy functions like an arty
Why respond to this guy? Complete unhinged trolling, unfathomable incoherence
At least now he can finally explain to me how 3 novax = mavor the same way 3 arty = mavor since one "essentially functions" like the other
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Yeah idk I shouldn't have responded. The goal is still to rework novax into a new capability, and I don't think there will ever be a great argument for keeping artillery-role novax.
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My earlier argument as poorly writen as it is, was to describe the fact that Arty and novax have different intented uses.
one has large dps and poor accuracy and one is very accurate but has low dps
one is to pick of vulnerable units and one to target protected units ect
although both function relatively the same
also just because quantum physics is unfathomably incoherent to a child doesnt mean its untrue, just hard to understand but you tried and thats what matters most
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My argument was to try and explain that I beleive they are both equal in value. but one is significantly cheaper.
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To maybe get this back on track, can anyone provide replays? Ones where either Novax was overpowered or required a huge amount of resources to defend against.
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I don't like SMD auotmatically attacking SAT because it would drain SMD. Could we make it a fire option?
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I see no problem with Novax. Absolutely none whatsoever.
It's a scouting unit. It provides vision. The laser is...meh.
If you are making 4-5 Novaxes to destroy your enemy, that enemy deserves to die. Because they weren't able to finish off an opponent who wasted resources on 4-5 Novax.
I mean...what were YOU doing when the enemy made Novaxes? Were you AFK? Why don't you have at least 3 artilleries pounding away at the enemy by the time he has 5 Novaxes up? I'd much rather defend against 5 Novaxes than 3 arties....-- this is how you balance a unit. Now, if that was the Artemis satellite from Blackops...though, that thing costs A LOT to make, and it's like a Yolona or Paragon - why'd you allow the enemy to make one? NOW SUFFER!
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@DDDX said in Another Novax conversation:
I see no problem with Novax. Absolutely none whatsoever.
It's a scouting unit. It provides vision. The laser is...meh.This comment tells me you have either not played normal games or your opponent didn't know how to use novax.
Novax has almost 0 impact on a map like dual gap, but has game ending impact on a map like setons (or basically any map with spread out mex / bases).
Yeah if the laser just shoots a shield it has no impact. But thats now how you use it. -
@Nuggets and it tells me that if you are playing Setons and going 5 Novaxes on it, you must be playing vs AI.
A t2 shield, with some boosting, takes care of a Novax laser. Which you need to have anyways to neutralize strat bombers
...so why are you making Novaxes and not arty? Ok, you need 1 for scouting, great. What are other 4 for? Their insane DPS?
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@DDDX said in Another Novax conversation:
@Nuggets and it tells me that if you are playing Setons and going 5 Novaxes on it, you must be playing vs AI.
A t2 shield, with some boosting, takes care of a Novax laser. Which you need to have anyways to neutralize strat bombers...so why are you making Novaxes and not arty? Ok, you need 1 for scouting, great. What are other 4 for? Their insane DPS?
Thanks for confirming you dont know how to use them. Novax is not meant to break a base. If you go 5 novax, ofc its gonna break through, but then arty is prob more mass efficient.
The use-case of novax is to target non-shielded things. Such as literally every mex on the map, which is not in the main base. Thats why my comparison between setons - dual gap.
Then there is the additional use case with a novax combined with an arty. Vision plus the instant ability to target the shields that are being built or currently down.Its impossible for a novax to not be worth it, if you can have it for over 1-2min
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Stick to your ai sentons gamplay man...
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I don't play UEF too much, but if I do and the opportunity presents itself, I will absolutely build a Novax over a duke 80% of the time. Cutting away at the fringes of a base and seeing what's going on has always been the better gamble more times than not. The cost makes it easier to deploy sooner, It definitely favors maps with spread out mass points too, and larger maps where response times are slower. Being on the receiving end is a drag, being slowly pulled apart until you're resource starved is demoralizing.
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@TankenAbard nobody said A Novax is a bad thing.
How about 5 of them? Total waste of resources. -
I also think that some people don't know that you can put engineers on shield towers to help keep them propped up. I rarely have issues in my main base against a Novax satellite because of this. For the cost of 5 Novax centers, you could do a lot more worth while things, absolutely.
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The strength of novax is not to break a main base..
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