Adjustment to the reclaim rates

[Paradox_of_War]

@jip I dont think you exactly understand what I meant. Besides the first 40 seconds when your initial factory is building, there is never really a dull moment, in 1v1 at least. Whether its queuing up extra factories, extra pgens or expanding in 3,4,5+ different directions with engineers etc, the game gets very intense very quickly on most maps. My point was admittedly less relevant to most players as its specific to me being a very sweaty 1700+ player motivated to break into the absolute top level of faf 1v1. I dont think the opening is boring but still I'd appreciate my 110% effort to be rewarded regardless. A super high effort and optimized opening is a significant variable that separates the BEST players from good/great players.

In terms of your idea to reduce t1 cost by 33%, I must say with all due respect I find it insanely unhinged xD. T1 is already extremely prevalent in all faf game modes, but especially in 1v1 I wager around 50% of my games or more never reach t2. T1 mass extractors are already so much more efficient than t2 which is what cause all-out t1 spam to largely be the meta on most 10x10s (and virtually all 5x5s). It sounds to me your comments are more geared towards big team games 4v4-8v8, where admittedly t1 is less pronounced (although I would argue is in a perfectly reasonable place) but I did mention in my post I was commenting from the perspective of 1v1. Anyway hope I didnt come across too hostile, just passionate!

[Exselsior]

Seems like it slows down high level play and does little to nothing for lower rated play. I think this is similar to what Paradox is saying, but imo area reclaim solves a problem that doesn't necessarily exist. What I mean by that is no low rated player is losing games because they didn't click enough rocks. There are a million other mistakes they're making that are far more important than clicking rocks. The difference between attack move and manually clicking rocks is meaningless until maybe 1600+ and that's being very generous, realistically it's a higher rating than that.

Even watching the replay was kind of sad, felt so much slower than normal ditch progress which sucks because that's fun to both watch and play.

Yes, it makes it less volatile early game and makes losing engineers less punishing, but I feel that that's the only real benefit and even then it's only a benefit at high level play.

[TestPlay]

Would there be a range indicator for this so that I can know the reclaim area? For instance where I would like to set the attack move point to reclaim only "rock a" and "rock b" but not "rock c" and where I know I can set the attack move point so that I can reclaim all "rock a" and "rock b" and "rock c"?

[Paradox_of_War]

@exselsior yeah I just watched the replay and it looked so sad.

[Loom-]

@paradox_of_war terari summarised it best for me:
"now they are making reclaiming slower to make it fair to everyone (you can no longer outscale old men because of manual reclaim)"

[snoog]

When will M29AI be released that can just play for us instead?

[Paradox_of_War]

@thewheeiienoob great let's make building speed and movement speed 5x slower also so the old men stop crying (their brains just work slower, it's only fair)

[Zeldafanboy]

Stop reducing the volatility of the game. Volatility is not bad

[CheeseBerry]

Big props to everyone actually testing out the new experimental ideas and giving constructive feedback!

Many of them will probably not work out and wont make it into the main game but that's what the testing is for afterall.

[CheeseBerry]

Maybe a dumb question and probably not the right thread for this, but regardless:

Why is the high level 1v1 ladder so dead?

High level team games seem to be doing mostly fine afterall.

Are there some gameplay changes that could make (high level) 1v1 more popular?

[Terarii]

@cheeseberry said in Adjustment to the reclaim rates:

Why is the high level 1v1 ladder so dead?

bad gamemode

@cheeseberry said in Adjustment to the reclaim rates:

Are there some gameplay changes that could make (high level) 1v1 more popular?

no rush timer 15 minutes

[StormLantern]

@cheeseberry

I think its mainly two things. 1. Mapgen has made teamgames a lot better, so that even custom games are not as BO dependent anymore. 2. Jagged stopped casting 1v1 ladder.

Making high level 1v1 more popular will mostly be dependent on a popular caster/streamer giving it attention. But im hoping the upcoming veto mechanic will help a little bit as well.

Third, making the league system more prominent and changing custom games to unranked casual games would ofcourse help make the matchmakers more relevant in general. But its not clear whether that is worth it.

[snoog]

changing custom games to unranked casual games

Jesus.... talk about a bad idea

[Whiteheart]

just make manually rock clicks speed the same as alt move

[StormLantern]

@snoog

not saying its a great idea. But the question was how to make 1v1 ladder more popular. This would prob do that.

[waffelzNoob]

1v1 would be more popular if we deleted all other gamemodes ️️️️

[relentless]

I have a question as I've always wondered how this works.
In the numbers you've got there tagada. How does it translate to the various engineers tiers? like is the number you've got there of 20m/s for a wreck based on a t1 engineer. What part of the blueprint affects how much mass an engineer can pull in per second?

[Jip]

@relentless The more build rate = the more reclaim rate. Tech 1 engineers have 5, an ACU with no enhancements has 10 and therefore has double the amount.

    ---@param self Prop
    ---@param reclaimer Unit The unit to compute the duration for.
    ---@return number time it takes to reclaim
    ---@return number energy to reclaim
    ---@return number mass to reclaim
    GetReclaimCosts = function(self, reclaimer)
        local maxMass = self.MaxMassReclaim or 0
        local maxEnergy = self.MaxEnergyReclaim or 0
        local timeReclaim = self.TimeReclaim or 0
        local maxValue = maxMass * 5
        if maxEnergy > maxValue then
            maxValue = maxEnergy
        end

        local time = (timeReclaim or 0) * (maxValue / reclaimer:GetBuildRate()) -- <- build rate is used here
        time = time / 10

        -- prevent division by 0 when the prop has no value
        if time < 0 then
            time = 0.0001
        end

        return time, maxEnergy, maxMass
    end,

[Swatoslav]

It is very sad for me that we will lose all legacy of maps like Daroza / The Ditch / Bermuda / Pyramid etc. with that change, and all casts / replays of tourneys will be not as much usefull or enjoable for learning yourself.
Also about team maps like Setons, where BOs are some part of a history. But it will affect only mid and partially rock BO, so not a big deal maybe. But still after change the game review will be different. "Setons whores" will understand me
I enjoyed spending hours on learning things with currenct gameplay with its dynamic and ideas of reclaim speed.

I accept and understand that on the other hand it opens new gate where new rules will have new effect on competition level. Same as Excelsior and Paradox_of_War, I do not think that change will solve the problems we're trying to solve. And for those who understands and applies it first in a more efficient way, it will be a good advantage.

I like all Jips references to WC3, and as former ladder WC player I can say that there were never changes like gold or lumber mining speed. Yes, units can be balanced, but in general economics and start buildings were always the same for so many years.

It is just my opinion and point of view and I would be happy if I'm mistaken and it such changes (if implemented) will lead us in the end to a better future.

[phong]

@Tagada I really appreciate the attempt at making auto reclaim work. I'm in no position to judge if these changes break the game or not, but I think the idea behind it is entirely fitting with the original vision behind the game, and if there's a way to also make it good balance-wise, I'm happy someone is trying to find it. Thank you for putting in the effort to give it a chance.

Even independently of auto-reclaim, I'm excited to try this change out, as I think it might shake things up a bit in an interesting way. How and when to fight for big reclaim clumps has always felt like one of the most important aspects of the game, in all it's stages, and I'm very curious to see what impact slower reclaim has.