Satellite overperforming.

Arran

The Satellite is too strong because it is too versatile. It can assault bases, pick of outlying mexus and shift targets faster than arty, all while being an amazing scout tool. This has made it one of the saltiest aspects of FAF for years. It literally does everything. It is like a T3 arty, but better in almost every way. It is equally cost effective in damage, it is perfectly accurate, has infinite range, has all intel types in a large radius and is not targetable.

In order to bring balance to the Satellite, I think handicapping the intel it provides would be best. By removing all intel (vision, radar and omni) from the satellite, it would restrict the satellite to a defensive tool when unsupported, and still keep its offensive potential intact, when supported by proper scouting.

This will allow a sort of soft counterplay. Rather than trying to commit to an all or nothing assault to destroy the command centre, or heavily investing into shielding every structure under the sun, denying scouting could be a form of defence. If the satellite can't see without assistance, it would only be able to target previously scouted structures, or units in radar/vision range.

I will now postulate how I think this change will impact gameplay. When using the satellite defensively, you would still have intel on what is attacking you, from the vision of your structures and units. Thus there should be negligible impact to the satellite when used defensively. When the satellite is used offensively, it will probably still be equally effective at attacking bases and outlying mexus, at least the first time. After the damage has been done, the rebuilding player will have a greater opportunity to rebuild (even under the satellite) if they can deny scouting. However, if there is persistent scouting the satellite will still perform well. Needless to say, I can't possibly predict all outcomes from such a major change, so I hope people comment their thoughts about if this would help reduce saltiness while keeping the satellite fun to use.

Hopefully this change allows for greater skill expression in both the use and defence of satellite play. I implore the balance team to think carefully and seriously about this suggestion, while considering the impact this change would have in a wide variety of situations.

P.s. The inspiration for this change was inspired by the removal of omni from the GC, which was a hard counter to Cybran cloak COMs. Similarly to how that change didn't negatively affect the GC while promoting healthier gameplay, I hope this change to the Satellite will have a similar effect.

Defiant

Respectfully surprised you feel the Sat is overpowered.

Noble_Ice

our balance despots don't think it is overperforming. uef is paying them

Deribus

@arran said in Satellite overperforming.:

It is equally cost effective in damage

Duke: 550 DPS/72k mass = 7.64 dps per 1k mass
Novax: 243 DPS/36k mass = 6.75 dps per 1k mass

7.64/6.75 = 113%

Duke is 13% more DPS/mass

Less than I thought but still significant

A Former User

I build 1 sat to give my artillery vision.

Amygdala

@deribus Considering the Novax doesnt miss, I dont think 13% less dps per mass is actually that significant. Never really felt they are OP though, just annoying and an APM sink for the defending team.

A Former User

@amygdala And artillery hits a lot of shields at the same time.

Chenbro101

I dont mind the dps. But scouting everything and having infinite range feels obnoxious.

A Former User

@chenbro101 said in Satellite overperforming.:

I dont mind the dps. But scouting everything and having infinite range feels obnoxious.

Ever heard of the Eye of Rhianne?

Zeldafanboy

The Noxax has bad DPS for its price because arty has splash damage and Novax doesn’t. Novax also has a long wonky fire cycle and doesn’t always use its full damage. The problem is that Novax is the most passive unit in the game and scalable. Just one is a nuisance. 5 are impossible to defend

Nuggets

I find it difficult to compare novax to an arty. Have you ever seen an arty that focuses all your mex across the map? I haven't.
Honestly, who cares that novax has less dps? Dps doesn't decide everything. You have vision, can spontaneously change targets (to target shields or engies) that it is, in my opinion, incredibly powerful (except maybe on maps like dual gap...). I find the sat to be such a weird units compared to every other unit that it should just be removed from the game.

FtXCommando

Trying to make novax a defensive t4 requires significant boosts to DPS or massive cost decreases. You're not paying 40k mass to float around and do 200 dps to gcs. The only t4s you even really see novaxes used in such a way is ironically fatboys.

Caliber

I agree the novax is extremely good value for money

with the "exp" being cheaper than 3T arty, having 100% accuracy and the best intelligence tool in the game with no range limit and enough dps to kill anything without a t3 shield its extremely good.

to emphasize the defense part of the name maybe it should have a range limit, so as it cant "attack" anything in enemy bases and kill mexes ect

I always thought the "exp" should sit midway between the t3 arty and a mavor with a little boost to dps

or just be the perfect scout and remove the weapon.

or just completely replace the T3 arty with the novax for faction diversity.

Deribus

@caliber said in Satellite overperforming.:

or just completely replace the T3 arty with the novax for faction diversity.

Tbh that'd be kinda cool. Only problem is it would drop UEF down to 3 experimentals, and that's a place they're struggling already.

maudlin27

It's good on open maps with spread out mexes, it's terrible on maps at the other extreme like astro. It's also a rare unit that isn't typically better to spam lots of (vs alternatives - e.g. 1 T3 arti and 1 novax is usually going to be better than 3 novax) which I like, and removing all intel/vision effects would lessen that to a significant effect.

Since UEF get their T3 arti highlighted in the first game many people will play (UEF mission 1) I'd also hate to see the Duke removed altogether.

It also makes sense thematically to me for a satellite to provide some sort of intel. That said, I don't feel strongly about it having omni vision or good radar - if it was to have its intel nerfed I'd rather it was along those lines but its vision was retained.

Noble_Ice

@maudlin27 just nerf the damn thing and let cybrans live longer

veteranashe

We have had this same busted conversation many times.

I think the cost should be massively decreased and it's only a spy sat, with the sat able to do a upgrade for the weapon which would put the cost to what it is now, then when the building gets shot down the mass gets deposited on your enemy.

Noble_Ice

@veteranashe i like your idea, but our balance despots will just dawn vote your comment like my. the more we talk about nerfing uef. how do we shot dawn(idea)?

MazorNoob

I'll risk a stupid, maybe incendiary question: isn't Novax strictly better than telemazer? Considering:

It's arguably cheaper when you factor in T3 pgen costs,
It doesn't put your commander in harm's way,
It can't be killed at the location it's attacking,
It's expensive to defend from in a different way: while telemazer is more expensive to protect from if you want the targeted thing to survive, it's less expensive to make some strats than to shield everything if you just want the ACU to die, and ACUs are irreplaceable,
It can target surface of open water unlike mazer,
It can be scaled up indefinitely unlike mazer,
It gives free intel.

I'm not sure if telemazer's being harder to scout and more effective at one-way suicide bombing makes up for this.

Noble_Ice

@mazornoob it's especially good if you don't want to play anymore and rush into the enemy base and do as much damage as possible. but the balance despots plan to change the teleport distance so that won't apply either.

I think satellite is better, but it's easier for me to defend myself from telemasors than satellites

you can only shield against satellites. then you have to prepare a massive attack on the enemy to destroy the novax and if you don't succeed you have donated so much mass to him that you automatically lose, while he is targeting you all the time or you manage to destroy him and then you have donated so much mass that there is no point in playing anymore, just he will then build 10 satellites because he has 20 kennels in the corner of the map that move all over the map collecting the mass you donated to him.

it would be good if SMD had the ability to build a special rocket that could destroy the satellite
balance despot are not interested in this novelty.