Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM
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@blackyps said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
@sheikah said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
For the distribution I would advise just taking n-standard deviations away to make it robust to change in the future.
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean
We should calculate the mean and standard deviation for each rating and then set the threshold so that the top and bottom x% of people are treated differently if you want to try something to squash the tail wait times.
Anything else will just be a headache to maintain.
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We probably should strive for making the Matchmaker match new people as fast as possible while not sacrificing the smaller but still important segment of 1.2k+. For that, you need to decrease the max deviation and imbalance in the 1k-1.8k range but then increase that again above 1.8k since at that point people are so far apart that otherwise it's impossible to get games and it's commonly accepted that high-rated lobbies usually start at around 1.6k-1.8k and 2k+ ones are a rarity
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Could you simply display the league divisions that are currently searching if you hover over the In Queue? You can make that information specific in terms of Diamond I/Diamond III or it could just be
Silver: 1
Gold: 4
Diamond: 2The main issue is that solo queueing as an 1800+ is just absurdly risky because if 6 Masters/GMs are in queue solo, it is still highly possible the system wants to make a game with only 2 of those depending on the rest of the queue. But at least seeing who is in queue might encourage some loose players at those ratings to queue up if they know a decent game is conceivable.
You can even combine that with new IRC chat rooms that autojoin you based on matchmaker ratings that you can opt-out of through the autojoin setting in settings. Or people could actually starting using the Discord rating channels 4head.
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@wikingest said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
@casternumerouno said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
I can as well get by hosting all welcome
You can host whatever rating bracket or balance you want in custom games.
Then what the fuck is the point of TMM? Isn't it supposed to make a balanced game? If it ends up making games that are no different from random ass all welcome lobbies then what is the point of it? Just make the whole Q unranked and call it a day then.
@blackyps said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
Give me something to work with instead of just ranting on the forum Endranii. As a 1.6k player, what is the smallest rating you are willing to accept?
It might have been lost in the discussion but I already said that we should most likely try by limiting it by brackets.
For example Gold V can match with Silver V and Diamond V which looks decent at first sight.As for the bigger outliers like masters and wood V you could give them 1.5 bracket leeway to make it easier for them to get games without making the games too imbalanced? Though looking at it now the 1.5 bracket might still be too high for the GM as D3 is around 1.4k rating while Blodir is 2.3k or so.
Also moving to brackets/divisions could be a positive move as it's way easier to understand what D4 stands for rather than 1.3k True skill rating.
@blackyps said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
I think it is acceptable to have wait times for new people as long as we communicate that properly. I see two problems with the current UX: 1. It's very hard to gauge the general queue activity, because people get matched and are then basically invisible. 2. The queue can reach over 8 people without matching and the reason is not apparent.
Increasing game quality and thus wait time could partially fix this, as the queue will basically constantly be over 8 people during active hours, so it will be more obvious that this is intentional. The general activity could then be gauged by the queue size.
However, this is still a very crude fix as the reason for this is still not obvious and it will even more regularly than now lead to people not getting matched repeatedly while seeing other people getting matched.
Any ideas how to improve this?Could also add additional split of players in Q by their rating bracket, near the people searching number, same as it is done in world of tanks matchmaking where you can/could see the amount of players in the Q per tier/tank type.
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@blackyps said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
I think it is acceptable to have wait times for new people as long as we communicate that properly. I see two problems with the current UX: 1. It's very hard to gauge the general queue activity, because people get matched and are then basically invisible. 2. The queue can reach over 8 people without matching and the reason is not apparent.
Increasing game quality and thus wait time could partially fix this, as the queue will basically constantly be over 8 people during active hours, so it will be more obvious that this is intentional. The general activity could then be gauged by the queue size.
However, this is still a very crude fix as the reason for this is still not obvious and it will even more regularly than now lead to people not getting matched repeatedly while seeing other people getting matched.
Any ideas how to improve this?For each queue, you could list the number of matches played (from that queue) in the last hour (preferably only counting matches that last >5 min or smth).
Also, in addition to displaying the total number of users in queue, you could also display the number of users in queue that the player is within a compatible rating range with, ie:
15 in queue (10 compatible)
or
15 in queue (10 near your rating)
or
15 in queue (10 you can match with) -
I will reply to other things mentioned in the thread later.
I like the idea of displaying the division brackets of other players, but it might be technically complicated to implement, because the league service and the rest of the server is very separated. They don't even use the same database.
We can't accurately display how many people are compatible to match due to how the matchmaker works. The rating difference is not the only metric, wait time and how balanced the resulting game will be are also factors. And even if you have sufficient people to match, the matchmaker might choose a different game that doesn't have you in it.
Restricting the match range to +- one brackets is not feasible I think. That is 340 rating. There is already a noticable uptick in wait times to restrict games to about 700 rating difference as you can see in the graphs.
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At risk of rocking the boat too much, I think the matchmaking algorithm is more or less fine. In my experience reading discord and aeolus, there are a pretty similar number of people complaining about the balance of matches as there are complaining about the matchmaking times.
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@swkoll said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
At risk of rocking the boat too much, I think the matchmaking algorithm is more or less fine. In my experience reading discord and aeolus, there are a pretty similar number of people complaining about the balance of matches as there are complaining about the matchmaking times.
Different people. 1500s are complaining about balance and 2000s complaining about matchmaking times (or more realistically just sucking it up and hosting custom, completely ignoring the existence of tmm).
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@casternumerouno said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
Then what the fuck is the point of TMM? Isn't it supposed to make a balanced game? If it ends up making games that are no different from random ass all welcome lobbies then what is the point of it? Just make the whole Q unranked and call it a day then.
All those games were balanced. Quite well balanced. Whoever made the algorithm, did a great job balancing games. Just look at the small rating difference between affronting teams.
The discussion is about one(two) person who do not like playing with lower rated players. Not about bad balance. While there is probably many players who like playing with lower rated players, and who could leave the matchmaker when things get changed. But it seems that we do not have exact statistic about that at this moment. And it is in the point where "who is more toxic and screams stronger gets heard".
@casternumerouno said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
Then what the fuck is the point of TMM?
The point of TMM, is that people who do not have friendlist in FAF can just join games, and play with random people(without getting thrown out, insulted etc.).
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switch option
Let me put it this way: This feature would be complicated to implement and I personally don't think it would be too useful, so I won't work on this. Maybe you can find somebody else that is willing to do it, but I don't think this will be implemented in the foreseeable future.
@ftxcommando said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
The main issue is that solo queueing as an 1800+ is just absurdly risky because if 6 Masters/GMs are in queue solo, it is still highly possible the system wants to make a game with only 2 of those depending on the rest of the queue.
Uhh, so what is the absurd risk here? Not getting matched? That doesn't sound too severe. Am I missing something?
match time
I thought about this some more and I don't think we need to be as fast as possible. We just need to be faster or about as fast as custom lobbies filling up. Does anyone know how long e.g. astro or an all welcome map gen game takes to fill? I don't play custom games.
Everybody knows this community is not huge, so people should be able to understand that one minute match times are not realistic. A system that throughs you in games fast is appealing at first, but if it turns out that these games are too unbalanced (and balanced in this context also means that the rating ranges of the players are reasonably close) to be enjoyable then people will stop queueing after some games. I think it is much better for long term player retention in the matchmaker if you can get nice games with wait times that are in the range of reasonably fast filling custom lobbies.
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@blackyps said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
@ftxcommando said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
The main issue is that solo queueing as an 1800+ is just absurdly risky because if 6 Masters/GMs are in queue solo, it is still highly possible the system wants to make a game with only 2 of those depending on the rest of the queue.
Uhh, so what is the absurd risk here? Not getting matched? That doesn't sound too severe. Am I missing something?
By absurd risk I mean that I personally would rather have no game over getting dumped into a game where I am 1800 with an 1800 enemy and then everyone else in the game is 1000-1200. Some people are fine with it, others aren’t. But that possibility is what stops me from queueing alone. I want a game where I feel like I can actually coordinate with my allies to accomplish something.
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I played around a bit more and gave people at the edge of the distribution an additional bonus. With this we can improve the situation at the very high level spectrum, by getting more high level games and we can drastically improve the situation in the mid-range where we have the playerbase to be more strict with matching.
I looked up the actual queue activity and noticed that I estimated it way too low in my previous runs. So I include the graphs for the current situation again.Let me say that yes, the wait times still increase a bit, but if you look at the absolute numbers in the bottom left, you notice that the situation is not too bad. At the moment almost half the people get matched instantly. By increasing the average wait time by less than even one queue pop, we can drastically improve the game quality.
Waiting three minutes more to get an actual high quality game seems like a good tradeoff to me.Current:
New:
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The new system might be worthwhile for 1k+ players, but I suggest you do something closer to the current system's wait times for new players (who are generally <1k).
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Please elaborate why you think that. And don't just look at the wait time charts. The current matchmaker is able to create games with 1800 rating difference. What do you think about that?
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@ftxcommando said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
@blackyps said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
@ftxcommando said in Allow us to pick rating brackets for TMM:
The main issue is that solo queueing as an 1800+ is just absurdly risky because if 6 Masters/GMs are in queue solo, it is still highly possible the system wants to make a game with only 2 of those depending on the rest of the queue.
Uhh, so what is the absurd risk here? Not getting matched? That doesn't sound too severe. Am I missing something?
By absurd risk I mean that I personally would rather have no game over getting dumped into a game where I am 1800 with an 1800 enemy and then everyone else in the game is 1000-1200. Some people are fine with it, others aren’t. But that possibility is what stops me from queueing alone. I want a game where I feel like I can actually coordinate with my allies to accomplish something.
^this
Or at least knowing you competent teammates you don't need to worry about.
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Please, if you have something that can fix current situation, why we not test it on real scenario? Lets test each config every 2-3 days. Server must be restarted to use new config values?
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Sheikah told me that changing the config values is not as easy as I hoped, so testing of a lot of configs is probably not feasible. We need a server release first to add the priorization of the people at the edge of the bell curve anyway.
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Just my quick little take: I'm 2500 in 4v4 tmm right now. In the last few days i've been searching together with ftx who's 1800 and we found 0 games in 3 days of searching for a total of around 4/5 hours. Right now i've been searching for 30+ min and i'm not getting any games, while people around my rating but a little lower do find games:
With how it currently does the matching tmm is basically dead to me. I want to play it, but i literally cannot match because it favors adding a 1400 to a lobby like this (probably because he was searching for longer?) which means i have to wait until they finished this game until i can potentially match again.
This combined with the fact that you cannot play anything else while searching since it will crash the game on launch makes it almost impossible.
Don't want to complain to much, but i'm pretty sadboy about this
Edit: 1 hour in progress
Searching with 1800 rated congreve which means average rating is 2150. Both got skipped for 2 1600's instead.
1.5 hours in the journey. 2 2.2k's got matched with 1.1k and 1.4k instead of me and congreve who average 2.1k
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(Short note just for record: Gorthaur and I invited Thunder (the 1100) to the party in the last one. Not sure if it made a difference if we didn't invite him - no idea how the system handles that 4head)
