15x15 Maps for Mapgen

Assuming 15x15 are even a thing, I think adding the option to generate them would be great. I've probably generated at least 200 maps over the last week alone and it's led to some interesting theories that I've had small talk with other players about.

For the most part, when you're doing a custom map using the sliders to adjust the settings, the map size and player count STRONGLY matter when it comes to how interesting the map will be. For instance, 6v6 on a 10x10 will lead to pretty boring maps most of the time. In fact it often feels like the sliders don't actually do anything. But if you 6v6 on a 20x20, the maps are suddenly much more varied.

The problem also appears with 4v4s and 10x10 maps. Try generating some, and you'll see most maps are pretty plain. Now lower it to 3v3 on 10x10 and the maps are suddenly much more interesting again.

So my theory is that the mapgen has some sort of soft-playercap for each size. I'm sure it's not programmed that way, but however the algorithm for generating the maps works, seems to work like that. You can get pretty interesting 4v4 and 5v5 maps on 20x20 as well, but lower it to 10x10 and they're mostly boring, open plain maps, maybe with a mountain in the middle.

So basically what I'm asking for is an intermediate between 10x10 and 20x20 because 10x10 can be too small, and 20x20 can be too large at times.

Thoughts?
Is it even possible?

Yes, it's possible. Some parts of the map gen code should theoretically be adjusted to make alternate map sizes generate well (certain things should be more soft-coded), but I expect there to be a decent variety of map sizes (including 15x15) available eventually.

The diminishing variety for the mapgen with higher play counts is a known issue. The reason why this occurs is because there is a certain amount of area that is designated to each player as well as a certain amount of pathing between players to ensure maps are "playable" without having things like no paths between teams.

I am slowly working to make it more varied but for smaller maps with more players it is more of a problem as I don't want to have the generator spitting out "unplayable" maps very frequently.

So the soft cap as you called it is known and a function of me being careful to not put out bad maps.

As far as the different size of maps it is definitely a possibility and is on my to-do list. Albeit a little lower on the priorities. There is some different formating for other maps sizes that need to be accounted for. Additionally the generator still assumes square maps so that needs to be adjusted as well.

If you are ever curious how the generator works feel free to reach out to me as well. Always happy to discuss.

@sheikah I agree that mapgen sometimes can have patterns when it's teamgames and it makes perfect sense for it to do so so it's playable.

but what about if you add an option to make it more volatile even if its "unplayable"? I think it would be fun playing on maps that are truly "random"

just my two cents, the current mapgen is godlike on 1v1, I think it's the biggest update in my FAF history.

@sheikah said in 15x15 Maps for Mapgen:

The diminishing variety for the mapgen with higher play counts is a known issue. The reason why this occurs is because there is a certain amount of area that is designated to each player as well as a certain amount of pathing between players to ensure maps are "playable" without having things like no paths between teams.

I am slowly working to make it more varied but for smaller maps with more players it is more of a problem as I don't want to have the generator spitting out "unplayable" maps very frequently.

So the soft cap as you called it is known and a function of me being careful to not put out bad maps.

As far as the different size of maps it is definitely a possibility and is on my to-do list. Albeit a little lower on the priorities. There is some different formating for other maps sizes that need to be accounted for. Additionally the generator still assumes square maps so that needs to be adjusted as well.

Ah ok, interesting to hear. I didn't think about limits being placed on the generator to keep maps playable. I'm glad to hear more work is being done to improve it. The mapgen is definitely one of my favorite parts of FAF recently. I even started a google sheet to keep track of seeds I like.

If you are ever curious how the generator works feel free to reach out to me as well. Always happy to discuss.

I just pulled up the github for it, so I'm gonna have some fun going through the code over the next few days. I'm really curious to see how it works.

I also really like @Javi 's idea. I love creating chaotic maps, having an "extra random" option without certain limits would be awesome.

You don't want truly random

Yeah if it was truly random it would take a lot of maps before you got anything even remotely playable.

And also @snagglefox if you want a visualization of how it works as well you can double click on the word generate in the generate map ui, a box will pop up. If you put --visualize in there then you will get to see the process.

Not truly random, but something more random lol

@Sheikah That's really cool. I just tried it a few times. Thanks for letting me know about it

Yeah part of the issue is that with not truly random but more random then it is as much effort on my part as the work I am doing to just get more varied maps in general.

@sheikah I've been following your mapgen GitHub for awhile now, and I am curious as to how you go about doing it. As in what is the general procedure undertaken for generating a map. I'm familiar with Procedural generation of various types, but my professional experience is more with computational evolution and shader node layer type systems like blender.

I've longheld that procedural maps should have been a requirement for RTS ever since AOE2.
Memorizing map meta < Learning to read a new map.

@KaletheQuick I will probably make another post that describes the map gen process

As a side note: having 15x15 and even 7.5x7.5 would be cool options for 1v1.

Alright I just pushed an update for the mapgen that allows for any map size that is a multiple of 1.25km. Right now the ui for the client doesn't exist but they can be made using the command line options. Having these in ladder will have to wait until the next server update.

yeah,having 15x15 would probably fix some of the classic gun rushes on 10x10 and probably set a limit to echowhoring and air focus on 20x20

@sheikah said in 15x15 Maps for Mapgen:

the command line options

Thats sounds great! Whats the syntax for the command line to generate the different map sizes?

edit: @Emperor_Penguin answered the question. The syntax is --map-size [multiple of 64]. So if you use --map-size 768, you get a 15x15km map.

Yes and for full reference all command line args are defined here https://github.com/FAForever/Neroxis-Map-Generator/blob/develop/src/main/java/com/faforever/neroxis/map/generator/MapGenerator.java#L366

edit: @Emperor_Penguin answered the question. The syntax is --map-size [multiple of 64]. So if you use --map-size [768], you get a 15x15km map.

Note that you should not use the surrounding brackets so would just be --map-size 768

Ah yes, forgot to delete those. edited it above

Also note that when you use command line options all the other UI arguments are ignored so you have to specify everything you want in the command line like spawn count and num teams etc

--map-size 64 doesn't work