Change Mantis to T1 tank icon
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It's an unintended side effect of what is generally a good system (use different icons depending on whether it's a "bot" or a "tank"). Cybran has bots instead of tanks for t1 because they look cool, not because of the intel game. We have to decide between two imperfect options:
-Mantis has "tank" icon even though mantis are bots
-Mantis has "bot" icon so it's harder to tell them apart from LABsSo either you have to tell people "diamond is a tank and hexagon is a bot EXCEPT for mantis" or you have to tell people "LABs look like this, t1 tanks look like this, but watch out, you can't tell Mantis apart from LABs"
It seems obvious to me which one we should prefer
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Disagree. The Mantis has a Bot Icon because Cybran thing is subterfuge (that and ability to threaten anymore but not necessarily engage everywhere) and at T1 you cannot really have classic counterintel like stealth avaliable easily in mass espacially for land.
So they gave an intentionally “deceptive” Strategic Icon, so espacially early game, a Cybran could fool an enemy with a Mantis as NotLab or Hunter as notTank.
(There is also I believe a speed/dps implication of what gets a Bot vs Tank Icon. Just in general. But that a different tangent).
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@Dragun101 said in Change Mantis to T1 tank icon:
There is also I believe a speed/dps implication of what gets a Bot vs Tank Icon
T2 - hover tanks are fast and cheap (blaze) or fast and expensive (riptide), heavy tanks can be slow (Obsidian) or fast (Pillars), bots can be slow (Ilshavoh) or fast (Mongoose/Hoplite)
T3 - bots are fast when they are from SupCom 1, but T3 armored bots and sniper bots are slow.
I don't see any patterns
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It makes no sense (both in terms of gameplay and lore) that you can zoom in and clearly see that its a Mantis (aka bigger threat than lab), and then just zoom out and somehow the information lost now?
The other factions would have to gimp their own tactical overview on purpose to remove information they already have, why.
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Because Cybran is messing with your intelligence gathering simply put
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Mantis is a t1 tank. That is all. (Although if the supcom 2 example is to be followed, it could have +25% damage (10 instead of 8 for 33.33 dps) in exchange for -25% hp (200 instead of 270).
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If it's a gameplay mechanic it should have counterplay, which in this case either doesn't exist or is switching off "Always Render Strategic Icons"... a setting in the options menu that you don't even have to be in game to access. That's not gameplay. If it was an intended mechanic, Mantis would appear with tank icons for the user - not that lore really matters but from that perspective why would you jam your own sensors?
To a lesser extent it creates the same potential problems for the Cybran using Hunters+Mantis as it does for the opponent. You won't know what your land mix is when just looking at it, and have to remember what you sent where and go out of your way to actually select units in various places to confirm what's what, whereas other factions can just zoom out and know how many LABs and tanks they have and where they are. This is potentially meaningful, especially early, as you might well push in with a LAB in a fight that a Mantis could win but a Hunter will lose, or hang back when you could have raided with Mantis and taken a lead. This goes against the point of strategic icons, which is basically the selling point of the game.
TLDR this isn't really a fun or interesting skillset to punish or reward for either side, and it's pretty hard to believe it's a deliberate design choice beyond "Mantis have legs".
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PR is up and merged.
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/3265 -
I'm quite sad noboby took draguns comment seriously, I think it makes perfect sense. Mantis has been like that since SupCom ... i'm sad this feature is removed to satisfy 3-4 people ....
#mantisarebots !!!! -
His argument falls apart because it also affects the cybran player himself.
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Who cares whether its an intended feature or whether it was in the OG supcom or not. All that matters is if its good or bad to have it in the game.
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Does anyone ever do this or is this a non issue
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Do what?
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Mix in hunters with mantis to make a army appear larger and more dangerous than it really is
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Compromise : instead of a tank icon, you put the bricks/percy icon : it's still a bot, but it has a X instead of a cross to differenciate it from the hunter. Of course it would have 1 white bar to indicate it's a t1 bot and not a brick.
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@Auricocorico Pretty brutal to have T1 <X> units being spammed out
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@Auricocorico but if we are doing that why not just change it to tank icon lol.
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That's the definition of a compromise ... Halfway solution between "no change, mantis are bots and cybran messes up with your intel", and "mantis are used as a tank, make it a tank icon"
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So I can put a fuller post with a more detailed explanation later but with exception of T3. Which is weird for icon assignment. But in general:
Units with Bot Assignment Strategic Icon. Had/Have higher DPS and with 1 Non T3 Exception Higher Movement than “Directfire” Equivalents.
All Labs had Higher DPS than tanks.
All T2 DirectBots had higher DPS than Tanks.
BotAntiAir had Higher DPS than TankAntiAir.
All Bots in general have had Higher Movement Speed Than TankDirectFire. Bots had lower HP than Tank Equivalent except for Aurora. Now Mantis, is also Bot Icon for Intel reasons as stated.Now interesting Ilshavoh is only T2 Bot Icon that an exception to this rule (and is noted in BP as having the wrong icon).
That said I would prefer Aurico solution, because it keeps the intel situation sense the similar icon results in a momentary confusion for players. But it keeps it distinctive removes the bad feels.
Also I would argue for introduction for whole host of new strategic icons to be frank. Like if I could I’d introduce the following new icons (bias exists here I’ll admit:
Air Engineer Icon (For Drones)
QGateway Factory Icon
Amphibious/Hover Icon for DirectFire/Scout/Missile/AntiAir/Arty
Bot/Land T2 Sniper Icon -
I'll just say I 100% disagree with Dragun's opinion and think it makes a lot more sense for mantis to have a tank icon, since that is what they really are.
I think it's very rarely a big deal that you will get confused, since hunters are not spammed and you can just assume a group of them are mantis, and if it's just one or two raiding you'll probably be sending tanks to counter rather than labs anyway so it's almost never very relevant. But there are some occasions where it would it ought to be clear without having to zoom in. I disagree this is or should be part of cybran's subterfuge style, because as BlackyYps said it's less clear to cybran players themselves, AND their teammates in a teamgame.
