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Why would you have left FAF?

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  • N
    nflanders @RedX
    last edited by nflanders 17 Sept 2023, 22:30

    @redx said in [Why would you have left FAF?]

    I'm so confused. What problem are you trying to solve here? You keep making suggestions that seem aimed at bringing in money, but to what end?

    Can I solve the problem? Of course not. If there was a person who would try to negotiate cooperation with Nordic Games.
    Success largely depends on the character of the negotiator.
    This can help solve a very wide range of problems.

    Here is the maximum program:

    1. Completely solve the problem of lags and disconnections during the game. Ideally, a system like in Beyond All Reason RTS, where only those with a poor connection to the server lag, everyone else enjoys the game. (more details: https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=37637)

    2. The game can become free on Steam. Will solve the problem with "funnel".

    @ftxcommando said in Why would you have left FAF?:

    the problems FAF has always had with regards for players isn't retention related, it's funnel related.

    Does the negotiator achieve success or not, if someone wants to try why not? The main thing is that the person is competent.

    V R 2 Replies Last reply 17 Sept 2023, 22:46 Reply Quote 0
    • T
      TheVVheelboy
      last edited by 17 Sept 2023, 22:37

      Can you just ban him?

      S 1 Reply Last reply 17 Sept 2023, 22:37 Reply Quote 0
      • S
        SpikeyNoob Global Moderator @TheVVheelboy
        last edited by 17 Sept 2023, 22:37

        @endranii said in Why would you have left FAF?:

        Can you just ban him?

        Ban who?

        T 1 Reply Last reply 17 Sept 2023, 22:50 Reply Quote 0
        • V
          veteranashe @nflanders
          last edited by 17 Sept 2023, 22:46

          @nflanders said in Why would you have left FAF?:

          @redx said in [Why would you have left FAF?]

          I'm so confused. What problem are you trying to solve here? You keep making suggestions that seem aimed at bringing in money, but to what end?

          Can I solve the problem? Of course not. If there was a person who would try to negotiate cooperation with Nordic Games.
          Success largely depends on the character of the negotiator.
          This can help solve a very wide range of problems.

          Here is the maximum program:

          1. Completely solve the problem of lags and disconnections during the game. Ideally, a system like in Beyond All Reason RTS, where only those with a poor connection to the server lag, everyone else enjoys the game. (more details: https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=37637)

          2. The game can become free on Steam. Will solve the problem with "funnel".

          @ftxcommando said in Why would you have left FAF?:

          the problems FAF has always had with regards for players isn't retention related, it's funnel related.

          Does the negotiator achieve success or not, if someone wants to try why not? The main thing is that the person is competent.

          Lol, I give 100% success here

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • T
            TheVVheelboy @SpikeyNoob
            last edited by 17 Sept 2023, 22:50

            @spikeynoob
            The dude above me who is trolling you for the past few days?

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • R
              RedX @nflanders
              last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 01:49

              @nflanders said in Why would you have left FAF?:

              @redx said in [Why would you have left FAF?]

              I'm so confused. What problem are you trying to solve here? You keep making suggestions that seem aimed at bringing in money, but to what end?

              Can I solve the problem? Of course not. If there was a person who would try to negotiate cooperation with Nordic Games.
              Success largely depends on the character of the negotiator.
              This can help solve a very wide range of problems.

              Here is the maximum program:

              1. Completely solve the problem of lags and disconnections during the game. Ideally, a system like in Beyond All Reason RTS, where only those with a poor connection to the server lag, everyone else enjoys the game. (more details: https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=37637)

              2. The game can become free on Steam. Will solve the problem with "funnel".

              @ftxcommando said in Why would you have left FAF?:

              the problems FAF has always had with regards for players isn't retention related, it's funnel related.

              Does the negotiator achieve success or not, if someone wants to try why not? The main thing is that the person is competent.

              Even if you could somehow convince Nordic to care about FAF, you would have to completely rewrite the game to completely solve lag and connection issues. The reason the game is so susceptible to connection issues is literally the very core of how the game's simulation engine works. You'd literally be better off porting all of the game mechanics and units to Spring or something than trying to change SC:FA into a client/server game.

              To be frank, none of the problems you are trying to solve are problems that are a fundamental barrier to playing FAF for pretty much anyone. The only people for whom SC:FA not being free is a real barrier to entry is people who are blocked from Steam because of political reasons. Can people in that country even download free games from Steam? Even if you got your pipe dream, it wouldn't affect player retention. You're pushing super hard for something that is irrelevant to everyone except you.

              B 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 06:26 Reply Quote 0
              • B
                Blodir @RedX
                last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 06:26

                @redx said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                Even if you could somehow convince Nordic to care about FAF, you would have to completely rewrite the game to completely solve lag and connection issues. The reason the game is so susceptible to connection issues is literally the very core of how the game's simulation engine works. You'd literally be better off porting all of the game mechanics and units to Spring or something than trying to change SC:FA into a client/server game.

                Spring uses deterministic lockstep like supcom, besides you don't want an authoritative server RTS regardless.

                Connection issues are in no way 'core' to how the game works. You wouldn't need to rewrite the game to solve network lag.

                You'd most likely have to make significant changes to increase the sim tickrate (source of most of what appears as input lag) gracefully though.

                N 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 11:21 Reply Quote 0
                • N
                  Nex @Blodir
                  last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 11:21

                  @blodir Isn't the input lag something that's deliberate (and not related to the sim)?
                  Because you need the input lag, to compensate for potential network lag.
                  That's why the game has a standard input lag of X ms, so people that have X ping to each other can still play together without stuttering.
                  That is because the engine expects input from every player on every tick, so if you have a higher ping than the input lag, the game micro freezes till all inputs arrive.
                  Changing the simulation tick rate shouldn't matter, but you'd need to rewrite how the engine works to be able to solve this lag problem. You'd need to introduce some kind of rollback code, that when there is no input from a player continues the simulation, but once the input for an earlier frame arrives, you'd need to roll back to that state and recompute up to the current tick (that's how most fighting games work), but that's a pretty heavy workload for a complex simulation like supcom (that doesn't even manage to run in real time sometimes).

                  As far as I understand springRTS, it handles it by having a server-client architecture, with the server as the single source of truth, so when someone lags behind they'll just get updated to the state of the server.

                  B 2 Replies Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 11:50 Reply Quote 0
                  • B
                    Blodir @Nex
                    last edited by Blodir 18 Sept 2023, 11:50

                    @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                    @blodir Isn't the input lag something that's deliberate (and not related to the sim)?
                    Because you need the input lag, to compensate for potential network lag.
                    That's why the game has a standard input lag of X ms, so people that have X ping to each other can still play together without stuttering.
                    That is because the engine expects input from every player on every tick, so if you have a higher ping than the input lag, the game micro freezes till all inputs arrive.
                    Changing the simulation tick rate shouldn't matter, but you'd need to rewrite how the engine works to be able to solve this lag problem. You'd need to introduce some kind of rollback code, that when there is no input from a player continues the simulation, but once the input for an earlier frame arrives, you'd need to roll back to that state and recompute up to the current tick (that's how most fighting games work), but that's a pretty heavy workload for a complex simulation like supcom (that doesn't even manage to run in real time sometimes).

                    As far as I understand springRTS, it handles it by having a server-client architecture, with the server as the single source of truth, so when someone lags behind they'll just get updated to the state of the server.

                    Tick n:

                    • collect pooled inputs during the time between tick n-1 and now and send to other players. Mark these inputs as destined for tick n+1
                    • run simulation with inputs destined for tick n (if inputs for tick n have not been received from all players, then pause)

                    So with 500ms sim tick length if you enter input (eg. give a move command to a unit) 10ms into tick n-1, then the input will be sent at 500ms, and executed at 1000ms. That is a 990ms input delay, which is tied to the sim tick rate.

                    N 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 12:03 Reply Quote 0
                    • B
                      Blodir @Nex
                      last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 12:00

                      @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                      As far as I understand springRTS, it handles it by having a server-client architecture, with the server as the single source of truth, so when someone lags behind they'll just get updated to the state of the server.

                      I don't know much about springRTS, but based on quick googling this is incorrect and it works the same as supcom and just about every other RTS. Note that the client-server network topology is not mutually exclusive with deterministic lockstep. When people refer to a server in the context of games like eg. sc2 they are referring to a proxy server that facilitates connections between the players (just like what we have in faf!) (though it is possible to have some extra functionality too, just not the kind that you are describing)

                      N 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 12:06 Reply Quote 0
                      • N
                        Nex @Blodir
                        last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 12:03

                        @blodir the current tick rate is 100ms tho, so doubling(halving) that to 50ms will only give you a marginal increase in responsiveness compared to the current 150(?) ms of input lag

                        Z 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 14:52 Reply Quote 0
                        • N
                          Nex @Blodir
                          last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 12:06

                          @blodir said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                          @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                          As far as I understand springRTS, it handles it by having a server-client architecture, with the server as the single source of truth, so when someone lags behind they'll just get updated to the state of the server.

                          I don't know much about springRTS, but based on quick googling this is incorrect and it works the same as supcom and just about every other RTS. Note that the client-server network topology is not mutually exclusive with deterministic lockstep. When people refer to a server in the context of games like eg. sc2 they are referring to a proxy server that facilitates connections between the players (just like what we have in faf!) (though it is possible to have some extra functionality too, just not the kind that you are describing)

                          Might entirely be I just looked at what was posted above
                          https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=37637
                          and how the syncing works:
                          https://springrts.com/wiki/Syncing_System
                          these all mention a server/host, which must not necessarily be a dedicated server, but there is still a host and clients in the architecture

                          B 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 12:17 Reply Quote 0
                          • B
                            Blodir @Nex
                            last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 12:17

                            @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                            @blodir said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                            @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                            As far as I understand springRTS, it handles it by having a server-client architecture, with the server as the single source of truth, so when someone lags behind they'll just get updated to the state of the server.

                            I don't know much about springRTS, but based on quick googling this is incorrect and it works the same as supcom and just about every other RTS. Note that the client-server network topology is not mutually exclusive with deterministic lockstep. When people refer to a server in the context of games like eg. sc2 they are referring to a proxy server that facilitates connections between the players (just like what we have in faf!) (though it is possible to have some extra functionality too, just not the kind that you are describing)

                            Might entirely be I just looked at what was posted above
                            https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=37637
                            and how the syncing works:
                            https://springrts.com/wiki/Syncing_System
                            these all mention a server/host, which must not necessarily be a dedicated server, but there is still a host and clients in the architecture

                            First link the first reply clarifies that it's regular ol' deterministic lockstep. However, the second link appears to describe a re-syncing feature. Yea, this is a hybrid approach where the system falls back on authoritative server approach if the parallel simulations get out of sync. As a downside whoever is selected as the authority gets to cheat to their heart's content 🙂

                            B 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 12:26 Reply Quote 0
                            • B
                              Blodir @Blodir
                              last edited by Blodir 18 Sept 2023, 12:26

                              @blodir said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                              @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                              @blodir said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                              @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                              As far as I understand springRTS, it handles it by having a server-client architecture, with the server as the single source of truth, so when someone lags behind they'll just get updated to the state of the server.

                              I don't know much about springRTS, but based on quick googling this is incorrect and it works the same as supcom and just about every other RTS. Note that the client-server network topology is not mutually exclusive with deterministic lockstep. When people refer to a server in the context of games like eg. sc2 they are referring to a proxy server that facilitates connections between the players (just like what we have in faf!) (though it is possible to have some extra functionality too, just not the kind that you are describing)

                              Might entirely be I just looked at what was posted above
                              https://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=37637
                              and how the syncing works:
                              https://springrts.com/wiki/Syncing_System
                              these all mention a server/host, which must not necessarily be a dedicated server, but there is still a host and clients in the architecture

                              First link the first reply clarifies that it's regular ol' deterministic lockstep. However, the second link appears to describe a re-syncing feature. Yea, this is a hybrid approach where the system falls back on authoritative server approach if the parallel simulations get out of sync. As a downside whoever is selected as the authority gets to cheat to their heart's content 🙂

                              From the first link it does sound like they have an ad-hoc server implementation that gets to determine the destination tick of each input packet so the high ping players experience more input delay. Unfortunately this would require supcom source code and a new proxy server implementation (but it is still the same network model and only a minor optimization). Again didn't look too closely tho just skimmed...

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • N
                                Nex
                                last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 12:48

                                yeah it all basic lockstep, but it uses some proxy like host-server (that doesn't run it's own simulation), that decides how fast the simulation runs, who is out of sync and it can somehow reorder the clients inputs.
                                Also apparently the lag just increases for slower cpus over the whole game time

                                players with slower-than-average CPU's will fall further and further behind the reference time but can stay ingame with increasing order latency

                                I don't know how long bar games can last, but a lot of supcom games are played on minus-speed for extended periods of time, so this approach also might break the game for a lot of people

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • B
                                  BlackYps
                                  last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 12:55

                                  yeah if I understand this correctly it essentially means that people will fall behind further and further until they are several minutes behind. So this doesn't sound like a feasible solution at all.

                                  Z 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 14:02 Reply Quote 0
                                  • Z
                                    ZLO @BlackYps
                                    last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 14:02

                                    @blackyps said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                    yeah if I understand this correctly it essentially means that people will fall behind further and further until they are several minutes behind. So this doesn't sound like a feasible solution at all.

                                    But this does mean that game only lags for a lager instead of lagging for everyone and game does not freeze when someone has lost connection.

                                    it also may be considered to not be feasible that everyone lags when 1 of the 16 players lags.

                                    it also allows players to spectate the game without lagging it to much

                                    in Beyond all Reason i have seen as much as 50 spectators in 16 vs 16 game, or about 60-70 in 8v8 game

                                    yes it does mean that you can fall behind by any number of seconds or minutes
                                    but it does sound fine to me for casual games
                                    in comparison for game being unplayable

                                    also in BAR 8v8 someone can crash for example on minute 30
                                    and players can decide to wait for him to launch the game again and catch up or just take his units and keep playing and if he will logs in again and load the game again and catch up to other players they can give him his base back.

                                    in tourneys i see this fall behind feature be less desirable... but can probably make game pause automatically if players fall behind more than by 2 sec or something like that.

                                    in case of sim lag i think in BAR it works that game does slow down to wait slow PC players but not always... it depends and idk how exactly it works there

                                    Tho idk why were are discussing this here... don't think we can add this functionality to FAF

                                    TA4Life: "At the very least we are not slaves to the UI" | http://www.youtube.com/user/dimatularus | http://www.twitch.tv/zlo_rd

                                    N N 2 Replies Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 14:15 Reply Quote 0
                                    • N
                                      Nex @ZLO
                                      last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 14:15

                                      @zlo said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                      it also allows players to spectate the game without lagging it to much

                                      That's basically how FAF Live replays currently work.
                                      You have some server that gets all the info from the players saves that and then distributes it to all spectators at a slower rate.

                                      @zlo said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                      also in BAR 8v8 someone can crash for example on minute 30
                                      and players can decide to wait for him to launch the game again and catch up or just take his units and keep playing and if he will logs in again and load the game again and catch up to other players they can give him his base back.

                                      Yeah a reconnect mechanic would be cool, but I don't think you can somehow get the game to load a replay, then after some time swap from watching replay into one of the players positions and then somehow make the game believe you are actually connected to an online lobby playing this game, without a lot of work on the engine side.😞

                                      @zlo said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                      in case of sim lag i think in BAR it works that game does slow down to wait slow PC players but not always... it depends and idk how exactly it works there

                                      From the link above it seems like it balances the speed around the average cpu rating of all players and people slower than this might fall behind.

                                      @zlo said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                      Tho idk why were are discussing this here... don't think we can add this functionality to FAF

                                      Well lag and desyncs are something that make people quit the game, but yeah fixing it is probably out of scope of FAF (for now).
                                      But discussing the solutions other projects use is kinda fine here I think. Better than just telling people that make those suggestions "it won't work." without any explanation.

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                                      • Z
                                        ZLO @Nex
                                        last edited by ZLO 18 Sept 2023, 14:52

                                        @nex said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                        @blodir the current tick rate is 100ms tho, so doubling(halving) that to 50ms will only give you a marginal increase in responsiveness compared to the current 150(?) ms of input lag

                                        Current inputlag is 500 ms

                                        (BAR players say that they don't like that aspect of FAF)

                                        TA4Life: "At the very least we are not slaves to the UI" | http://www.youtube.com/user/dimatularus | http://www.twitch.tv/zlo_rd

                                        N 1 Reply Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 15:03 Reply Quote 0
                                        • N
                                          Nex @ZLO
                                          last edited by 18 Sept 2023, 15:03

                                          @zlo said in Why would you have left FAF?:

                                          Current inputlag is 500 ms

                                          huh interesting
                                          my brain somehow had this number 150 saved for some reason.🤔
                                          Well with 500ms input lag assuming the sim tick "lag" comes on top that is currently 50ms on average (100 max) so you could reduce the input lag by 5-10%, by doubling the sim tick rate.
                                          Doesn't sound like a good trade tbh.

                                          Z B 2 Replies Last reply 18 Sept 2023, 15:09 Reply Quote 0
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