Is this a cheat or not?
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@FtXCommando Ya i use shift-g for attacking other units, with subs it is different as one may stack the subs into one spot. If the group now attacks an enemy they only see one sub so 80 vs 80 subs the ungrouped will always lose. Generally it will be the grouped may lose 5 or 10 units. Sure seems like a cheat.
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You can do the same with gunships - group them up with distribute orders, and you can stack 80 gunships in one spot! If the group now attacks an enemy they only see a few gunships, so 80 vs 80 specter gunships the grouped will always lose. Generally it will be the ungrouped may lose 10 units.
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Yes, I remember such moments. Especially in the Total Mayhem mod, which featured pseudo-experimental gunships. These gunships were wildly imbalanced in huge numbers precisely because of this effect.
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Wait till you hear about air units
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The recommended direct counter is groundfiring the stacked subs with ships that have splash damage, such as destroyers.
Only exodus has enough splash out of all the destros to groundfire subs (1.4 instead of 1), and even so it's barely enough so I wouldn't recommend it. Battleships with 2 splash radius are the usual groundfire unit, although by that game stage it's a bit irrelevant.
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does it? I have never seen exodus damaging subs
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Ok i have found out that exodus can hit t1 subs. That is incredibly stupid as the destro is already the best against subs without that. If anything this needs to be a thing of all destros or none
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@waffelzNoob If I am not mistaken this guy plays games that have no air in them. I think he is just upset about what people do in said games. I have noticed a lot of games over the years that do the same thing with water and land games. People stacking subs. Thing is that if it is such an issue in those games there are a lot of fixes to that with just land and naval units. For example, the Tempest has splash torpedoes, and its cannon can take out a group of subs with one shot, and it does splash damage so it will take them all out with one shot. Most of the time people are unaware that the Aeon's key units were the Navy. Cybran was Stealth EXPs and Air Units, UEF was their Land advantage for being able to build quick bases with mobile shielded Fatboy and fast produced land units without the assistance of commanders on the front lines. Those are the advantages of every Primary faction from the Vanilla game. The Seraphim are an all-around type of faction. They have good of everything.
Anyways what i am trying to say is that group subs can be taken out by anything with a splash range of 2 or more. Almost all units that can do splash damage are a 1.5 or higher so there shouldn't be any problem. All T3 mobile arty. All t2 missile launchers. All t2 arty. All t2 mobile missiles, t3 mobile missile for UEF. Megalith cannon Tempest cannon Fatboy cannon. Ythotha Cannon, and Blaster. All T2 Destroyers except Seraphim can hit subs with the blast radius if aiming directly over them (Tested this after recent patch) T2 cruiser of Sera and UEF can destroy all subs with their tacs (Including UEF Atlantis) T3 missile ships Aeon and Sera can hit all subs as well. Grouped subs can be destroyed very easily it just take a few well=placed hits and your fine.
@zoodoo4u This isn't that hard/ In fact it makes it much easier to kill them all when they are stacked. You have to see things differently. There are counters to basically everything in the game its not a cheat it is the way people play. If there is a problem, find a way to fix it. Try not to make it another bigger problem.
@deribus @indexlibrorum I hope this helps everyone here see that it is just one strategy and it helps deter their frustrations -
@NoRest4TheWicked
You forgot about Mavor, Salvation, and Nukes. How many Mavors we need vs 5 factories with t1 subs production?)))) absurd)))Do you realize it's incredibly stupid to claim that high-level troops with splash damage can counter T1, T1 Karl! submarines? And what if you don't have splash damage?
Half the units you listed are ground units, but what if there's no land from which T2 or T3 artillery can radius them? What if you're playing a Cybran and you don't have splash damage on your ships? What nonsense.
You say that this is simply a mechanic, although ground units, for example, do not behave this way, and large battles on the ground take place according to completely different scenarios and are more predictable. -
I'll expand on my answer to clarify my position.
I only play modded Mass Battles with ground vehicles. Therefore, my opinion is biased. However, in my games, proper retreat and army positioning are crucial. And if the ground vehicles were as described in this thread, it would be a complete failure. So I understand the author of this thread, who plays ground battles and then suddenly encounters "what we have" with submarines. -
wait till he hears about chickens dealing infinite damage - for free!
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@cychwa_klaymberg He doesnt play with those in his games
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@Nuggets I am sorry if what I said upset you. You are a part of the Association Board. Why would you downvote my response if I speak the truth. I would understand if what I said was offensive, but it wasn't. I just spoke the truth of the matter. The game has been out for 20 years now. You can't have a problem with every little thing that pops up. Some mechanics of the game are good counters to other things like spam. If people know how to counter said things you shouldn't classify it as cheating. You should reward them for finding a solution on their own. If that is their game style, leave them be. Like those who use this tactic, find your own countermeasure to it. Find enjoyment in the game. Don't always be competitive. Can't have fun that way.
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I simply downvoted because i disagreed, it has nothing to do with the board. It has nothing to do with me disliking what you said. I simply did not agree with your take on how "simple" it is to counter stacked subs.
Obviously this is not cheating. Its simply a mechanic in the game. I just dont like the mechanic and consider it unbalanced.
Also the argument of "find your own countermeasure" and "dont always be competitive" is fine, but when talking about balance we are obviously balancing about what is competitive and not around vibes.
Edit: Also I disagree you "simply spoke the truth". Sure you are not wrong with the stats and uses of the units you mentioned, but I disagree a player can "simply" use them. It was already mentioned you dont always have land units nearby and on standby when subs are being stacked and I also dont keep bombers hovering behind my navy for the rare occasion the subs are stacked.
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@Nuggets I am sorry. I guess what I was trying to say didn't come across correctly. The wa i think things doesn't always get said correctly. That's the autism mentality I have. Sorry if I sounded rude.
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it isn’t very difficult to give navy units collision like land units
okay, enlighten us
.There's a few myths here that do not align with my own understanding of the engine, let me add some info:
Submarines behave like underwater air units. This is because of their motion type as far as I am aware, maybe Balthazar knows better. That is why they can stack, because technically you can do the same with air units. @maudlin27 already mentioned this, especially gunships. Nobody does that though, because the average anti air gun of any significance has splash damage. In Steam FA, some tech 3 AA guns do not have splash damage. In FAForever, all tech 3 AA guns have splash damage. This is why.
The easiest solution to make stacking submarines less attractive is to give torpedo's splash damage too. Problem immediately solved, the micro would no longer be about stacking (which is hardly micro - it's just one hotkey) and more about keeping the submarines separated so that the splash damage (of torpedo's) doesn't hit multiple submarines. Keeping submarines separated feels like more interesting gameplay to me, both in terms of watching and in terms of playing. But who am I
.Normal move command obeys the collision box, subs aren’t any different
No move command obeys any collision box. Yes, while moving units can bump into each other for some motion types/layers. But that has to do with moving in general, not with the (type of) move command.
Regular move commands expect the selection to end up in some form of formation. The formation itself has the collision box of a unit as one of its parameters, in a loosely manner. The distribute order feature just sends all units to the same location, it does not attempt to make a formation. If you give a single unit a move command, it is equivalent to move command of the distribute orders feature. When there's just 1 unit, no formation logic is run and therefore no formation is made.
Do not confuse this with formation move. Formation move means the units also move in formation. There is, without using distribute orders, always a formation in play even with regular move commands: the formation where they end up at!
The only thing the distribute orders feature does is automate the task of assigning a move command to all the units in your selection as if you separately selected each unit and gave it a move command with just that unit in your selection.
Source: https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/5908, hours and hours of investigating how move commands and formations work and behave.
Not mentioned in this topic, but a similar myth: a large selection of naval units taking forever to respond to a (new) move command. This is intentional, as the formation logic has a 'delay' parameter where each row is delayed longer than the row before it. I think this is there to not deplete the pathfinding budget when you quickly issue many (move) orders, but I'm not sure. This is especially painful for naval units, since there's usually more rows since naval units are, uuhh - preeeeetty wide in the formation. Therefore there are more rows. And the more rows, the longer it takes for all units to start moving.
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