Is this a cheat or not?
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You are talking like navy units have no collision at all. They prob have the worst collision. Its only the shift-g command that enabled them not suddenly move onto the same position. I very much doubt its kept for the reasoning its a good feature, but because there is no better alternative because especially navy pathfinding is fucked. That is fine to me as long as the reason isnt "its a good feature so we keep it"
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Because shift+g is a solution to bad pathfinding, it’s used all the time both in land and navy for that. Likewise with navy you can have 15 destroyers/battleships sit in the same spot after being made, but with land you’re going to create a traffic jam that stops your factory from producing and the units will also not be able to leave and likely lose their order due to perpetual engie bumper cars. It would be significantly easier to run into the issue of idle navy facs if they had land unit collision and required their own individual space like that.
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Yeah so some with land facs you have to think how to place them to not create a jam.
Also naval armies are usually smaller than land. -
The problem is the jam just sort of always exists for big navy production because it’s much more of a given to have 60 engineers on a factory while land factories don’t run into that. This is especially true for something like ie skadi where you could be building navy in a cove or something like flooded tabula too.
While armies are smaller on a unit basis, the actual unit box of a battleship is closer to a t4 than a t3 unit and a destroyer is also like 3 t3 units in size as well. It’s really easy to run into a problem with pushing units through in a map that doesn’t have a senton style wide, obstacle free ocean to position in.
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I'm honestly a bit confused by your arguments. Thats kinda how navy works right now. Batteships are so fat everything collides with them and gets stuck. It is only shift g that can circumvent this. Why cant normal move command do this then? According to that logic we should remove all collision from navy so that normal move command can do the same.
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Normal move command obeys the collision box, subs aren’t any different
If you fully remove all collision then things like tempest are monstrously op because you now need to manually babysit everything so you don’t take quintuple dps from a random tempest or bs or exodus shot when you didn’t intend it.
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@FtXCommando I would disagree. You obviously sound like you don't know what you are talking about as it isn't just me reporting it and other confirm it...
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@FtXCommando Ya i use shift-g for attacking other units, with subs it is different as one may stack the subs into one spot. If the group now attacks an enemy they only see one sub so 80 vs 80 subs the ungrouped will always lose. Generally it will be the grouped may lose 5 or 10 units. Sure seems like a cheat.
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You can do the same with gunships - group them up with distribute orders, and you can stack 80 gunships in one spot! If the group now attacks an enemy they only see a few gunships, so 80 vs 80 specter gunships the grouped will always lose. Generally it will be the ungrouped may lose 10 units.
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Yes, I remember such moments. Especially in the Total Mayhem mod, which featured pseudo-experimental gunships. These gunships were wildly imbalanced in huge numbers precisely because of this effect.
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Wait till you hear about air units
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The recommended direct counter is groundfiring the stacked subs with ships that have splash damage, such as destroyers.
Only exodus has enough splash out of all the destros to groundfire subs (1.4 instead of 1), and even so it's barely enough so I wouldn't recommend it. Battleships with 2 splash radius are the usual groundfire unit, although by that game stage it's a bit irrelevant.
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does it? I have never seen exodus damaging subs
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Ok i have found out that exodus can hit t1 subs. That is incredibly stupid as the destro is already the best against subs without that. If anything this needs to be a thing of all destros or none
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@waffelzNoob If I am not mistaken this guy plays games that have no air in them. I think he is just upset about what people do in said games. I have noticed a lot of games over the years that do the same thing with water and land games. People stacking subs. Thing is that if it is such an issue in those games there are a lot of fixes to that with just land and naval units. For example, the Tempest has splash torpedoes, and its cannon can take out a group of subs with one shot, and it does splash damage so it will take them all out with one shot. Most of the time people are unaware that the Aeon's key units were the Navy. Cybran was Stealth EXPs and Air Units, UEF was their Land advantage for being able to build quick bases with mobile shielded Fatboy and fast produced land units without the assistance of commanders on the front lines. Those are the advantages of every Primary faction from the Vanilla game. The Seraphim are an all-around type of faction. They have good of everything.
Anyways what i am trying to say is that group subs can be taken out by anything with a splash range of 2 or more. Almost all units that can do splash damage are a 1.5 or higher so there shouldn't be any problem. All T3 mobile arty. All t2 missile launchers. All t2 arty. All t2 mobile missiles, t3 mobile missile for UEF. Megalith cannon Tempest cannon Fatboy cannon. Ythotha Cannon, and Blaster. All T2 Destroyers except Seraphim can hit subs with the blast radius if aiming directly over them (Tested this after recent patch) T2 cruiser of Sera and UEF can destroy all subs with their tacs (Including UEF Atlantis) T3 missile ships Aeon and Sera can hit all subs as well. Grouped subs can be destroyed very easily it just take a few well=placed hits and your fine.
@zoodoo4u This isn't that hard/ In fact it makes it much easier to kill them all when they are stacked. You have to see things differently. There are counters to basically everything in the game its not a cheat it is the way people play. If there is a problem, find a way to fix it. Try not to make it another bigger problem.
@deribus @indexlibrorum I hope this helps everyone here see that it is just one strategy and it helps deter their frustrations -
@NoRest4TheWicked
You forgot about Mavor, Salvation, and Nukes. How many Mavors we need vs 5 factories with t1 subs production?)))) absurd)))Do you realize it's incredibly stupid to claim that high-level troops with splash damage can counter T1, T1 Karl! submarines? And what if you don't have splash damage?
Half the units you listed are ground units, but what if there's no land from which T2 or T3 artillery can radius them? What if you're playing a Cybran and you don't have splash damage on your ships? What nonsense.
You say that this is simply a mechanic, although ground units, for example, do not behave this way, and large battles on the ground take place according to completely different scenarios and are more predictable. -
I'll expand on my answer to clarify my position.
I only play modded Mass Battles with ground vehicles. Therefore, my opinion is biased. However, in my games, proper retreat and army positioning are crucial. And if the ground vehicles were as described in this thread, it would be a complete failure. So I understand the author of this thread, who plays ground battles and then suddenly encounters "what we have" with submarines. -
wait till he hears about chickens dealing infinite damage - for free!
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@cychwa_klaymberg He doesnt play with those in his games
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@Nuggets I am sorry if what I said upset you. You are a part of the Association Board. Why would you downvote my response if I speak the truth. I would understand if what I said was offensive, but it wasn't. I just spoke the truth of the matter. The game has been out for 20 years now. You can't have a problem with every little thing that pops up. Some mechanics of the game are good counters to other things like spam. If people know how to counter said things you shouldn't classify it as cheating. You should reward them for finding a solution on their own. If that is their game style, leave them be. Like those who use this tactic, find your own countermeasure to it. Find enjoyment in the game. Don't always be competitive. Can't have fun that way.
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