TMD could be cheaper

So there have been several posts about how op TML is, and even more people agree that its kinda stronk.

But the balance team dont wanna change it, or at least just havnt got around to it yet.

So I put farward another suggestion, that the TMD at least could and probably should be cheaper considering how many you have to build to defend against just one TML.

A reasonable amount of TMD for a single player would be about 6 maybe more or less depending on the map, also it can effect multiple players so lets say one tml can hit at least 2 to 3 players bases, with 6 TMD per player.

1 TML = 800 mass

1 TMD = 280 mass
6 TMD = 1680 mass
12 TMD = 3360 mass
18 TMD = 5040 mass

Just to defend against one TML, obviously this varies massively depending on the game but thats based on an average team game. Not to mention the value in lost mexes or HQ ect.

The cost of the TML isn't just 800 mass:

• mass cost: TML (800 mass) + missile (250) + some way to kill tmd, let's say 4 (easily countered) T1 bombers (360) = 1410 mass (unitdb) which affords 5 TMD.
• You need to get an extremely valuable central map position to be able to force out 6 TMD per enemy base. You then have to get T2 engineers to that position. Taking all that time + having to get the engis there (early HQ instead of eco) gets your opponent a T2 mex.
• You also have to build a TML instead of a T2 mex which gives your opponent extra mass to build TMD while you load the TML.

@Nomander easily done with a t2 com

A picture paints a thousand words so here is the TML range on a 15km map, so not a small map

As you can see it can hit 3 players

and I counted 38 mexes within range

tml up within 9 minutes and within 2 minutes killed over 7k mass and forced probably another 5k in defences

pick and replay where a player uses TML and you will see the same thing over and over and over again

It's a bad trade if you are TML-ing a T1 mex or factory. Your opponent can get 1-2 TMD in his core where his high value targets (t2 mex, t2 pgen, fac HQ) will be and that will block this completely. In team games if your opponent is just ceding map control they deserve to be punished like this.

Same argument could be applied to SMD or PD with equal (little) amount of sense. If defense was so effective overall there would be no way in game to break it through. 1 TML + 1 missile is already 5 TMD, it's not a little amount.

Who's asked?

imo if tml was balanced it would be used to exploit gaps in defences and maybe kill a few high value targets before a player notices.

however at the minute it is a case of " I rushed tml before you have t2 and I kill everything u have EZ"

I think ppl need to have incentive for rushing something or doing anything? tml is one of those options...

If you scout, you can be prepared, as long as you choose a normal teching process(unless you are being outplayed)

I'm a casual noob , but also found support tml early is fairly expensive.

Be a shame if tml turned into mercy

got to be said though, with the height problem, that is when making 20 tmd becomes a problem:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/7834/tml-height-needs-to-be-lowered/3

@caliber said in TMD could be cheaper:

I rushed tml before you have t2 and I kill everything u have EZ

It doesn't work this way, killing T1 with TML isn't mass-effective.

@SainseRow I never said anything about killing t1 anything

killing an upgrading hq or even any hq with tml is just auto win cant defend anything without t2 engineers

and you will have t2 mexes long before you have access to t2 tech

and even if the only thing on the map left to kill is t1 you have already won.

@caliber TML covering an entire map is possible pretty much only on 5v5 km

If you're building too much t2 mexes instead of T2 tech you can be punished for it in a multiple ways which are not limited to TML only

TMD is already incredibly cheap for what it counters and making it cheaper won’t solve the issue of getting locked out of TMD if your T2 HQ gets sniped

I do not think there's anything wrong with TMLs. Yes, they can be strong if your opponent is not ready for them. Especially remote extractors are often good candidates. Which is fine in my opinion - if your opponent is being greedy then TML is the tool that is available to you to punish your opponent.

What I think @SainseRow is referring to is that TML (just like SML) scales quite decent with the number of players. And as a result, you need more TMD (or SMD) and therefore they look expensive. But usually my problem is not with the costs of a TMD, it is the lack of a tech 2 build suite in the area where it is required.

@caliber said in TMD could be cheaper:

The problem here is not the TML being too strong or that TMD are too expensive. The problem is that the opponent team let white build the TML in the center of a 10x10 map. Especially considering that they have a lot more units in the area than white does. They let you to sit there with a TML. And that's good mechanics working - white takes advantage of its opponents being too passive. Good on white for doing so.

You could reduce the health of TML so it would be more effective to kill it with t1 bombers. Proactively scouting the TML and sniping it should be cost effective, since it requires attention and air, but right now you would need 8 t1 bombers which costs too much mass.

@thomashiatt It's already planned in the forecoming patch alongside with TML being volatile

https://patchnotes.faforever.com/pages/balanceChanges.html

@SainseRow you should have lead with the fact that you are already planning some changes, I highly aprove of these xd

although as my loathing of TML use grows with each game, I feel that more nurfs should be considered for a better balance.

TMD is fine as is.

I could see an argument for making TML or its missiles more expensive, but even that's iffy

@Deribus

lets compare 2 similar T2 static units to highlight how cheap a TML is.

considering that a tml does 5000 damage and a klink hammer does 2000 damage

tml takes 1.01 to build and klink hammer takes 2.03 to build

the klink hammer is 1900 mass and 13585 energy

the tml is 800 mass and 4000 energy plus projectile 250 mass per shot

the Klink Hammer has a range of 115, the TML is 256

TML can even fire quicker than T2 arty

it seems that justifying a significant increase in costs to the TML would be a slam dunk.

Iffy? TML is one of the most risk free forms of aggression in the game. Combine it with TML ACU that can move wherever and cannot be sniped (but also can’t be reclaimed when no longer useful) and factions like sera which can one shot TMD with a singular notha u will never catch in time and it’s ridiculously strong.

People out here making it sound like it’s mid and not worth it half the time. It’s in the same category as first bomber in teamgames where a competent team should be abusing it every game pretty much.

A TML killing a single t2 mex is already mass efficient when you actually take into account the fact reclaim is entirely killed and you can reclaim the launcher at your own leisure.

What about 1 health missiles? That way tmd becomes much better at countering and you don’t need as many to protect an area, without hurting mmls.

It also still preserves the ability of tmls to punish players, while rewarding scouting the tml slightly more