luhhhhhh effort
Username rules updates
@thewheeler said in Username rules updates:
Differences in names. IlIlIl and lIlIlI migh look exactly the same, but you can still tell them apart by looking at the height of the letters
I mean from a mod pov i can see this as pretty reasonable tbh (without the player ids in place). I tell people apart based on stuff like rating clan flag etc, but based on name i have no clue at all whos who even though i would be someone with the highest chance to know in general.
@theweakie said in Username rules updates:
I mean from a mod pov i can see this as pretty reasonable tbh (without the player ids in place). I tell people apart based on stuff like rating clan flag etc, but based on name i have no clue at all whos who even though i would be someone with the highest chance to know in general.
Bad vision + bad memory, old man problems 
This post? Fantastic. Clearly addresses each of our concerns, points out problems our solution has, and describes where our communication has failed.
The situation is: mod team comes out with a (ridiculous) change. Now WE have to take the time to formulaten an article on why this is bad. You are saying it is not acceptable to just write "bad change, reverse". You want an entire article with pro, cons, examples and whatever.
How about YOU (mod team) post a 'proposal' and not a change that might be reversed if enough people complain (obviously this is not appicable to every change, but it clearly is here).
I don't even know how to say how ridiculous it is that a rule is getting an insanly strict update (not sure how to formulate that), and you expect people to go "Yeah ok, it helps moderation".
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration but this is what it feels like to me.
@dorset BF2142 was the shit. I am so sad that we can never play it again. It was such a good game.
6 months is an utter travesty. Why even create thread, gather the opinions of players if you're just going to ignore them. 12 > 6 months is somewhat a compromise, but I agree with @FtXCommando
"6 months is still ridiculous, 3 months is barely tolerable, 2 months is acceptable"
For convenience, here is a list of problems the reduction in rename frequency is meant to address:
- In-game communication
- Tournament player recognition
- Player reputation
In addition, there are some benefits specifically on the moderation side of things. I wanted to stress the ones above because it seems like there has been a focus on the benefits on the other side of the moderation curtain, which was not the intent.
- Ease of reporting the correct player
- Reduce impersonation (of moderators or otherwise)
- Reduce the frequency of inappropriate usernames
- Make it harder to evade moderation action by rapid username changing
Again, I want to stress that these last 4 were never the primary reasons for this change, just additional benefits.
Example of name inconsistency being a problem
Recently Sladow (trainer team lead at the time) asked me to fix the trainer team avatars.
List of players who have the personal trainer avatar.
List of players who should have the personal trainer avatar
I canāt just compare these two lists because the usernames are different. Autopsy- has the avatar, but is he supposed to? I have to look up the account Autopsy- and then look up his old usernames, and only then can I figure out itās (probably) Grimplex. It might not even be grimplex, because what if he username traded with someone at some point?
Now say Grimplex didnāt have the avatar but was supposed to. I look up the name Grimplex and there are no results. Okay so he uses a different name at the moment. I look up all accounts which have ever had the username Grimplex and there are multiple results. Now I have to go through account by account to make an educated guess which one of these is actually the person I want to grant the avatar to. Now repeat this for potentially all 14 members of the trainer team.
TheWheiieNoob's post (not to be confused with TheWheLieNoob)
@thewheeiienoob said in Username rules updates:
Identity
The simple solution that's already been proposed is simply to make the unique player ID accessible on player cards or in chats with said player. Basic example pictured, and I'm surprised the mod team has ignored this suggestion as it fixes a lot of problems highlighted.
This has come up multiple times in our internal discussions. Personally I think it's the worst of both worlds. It doesn't solve our main concern in that you have to take extra steps to determine who someone is. If you've gone so far as to pull up the account data it's only one extra click to see their name history. Heck accounts already have IDs, they're just not easy to pull up. Let's say I told you that account 118363 did XYZ. Does that give you any useful information? No, because you have no idea who account 118363 is. Well that's Giebmasse/Viba. You'd have no way of knowing that unless you exhaustively went through accounts one by one until you found a matching ID. Are you expected to now memorize a 6 digit number for each player you might want to identify?
In my opinion (which isn't necessarily held by the rest of the moderation team) adding an ID section like that, especially in the lobby, just adds more visual garbage without actually solving anything.
@thewheeiienoob said in Username rules updates:
For a start, how do you define what each player's identity is? Farms has been TheWheelie for over a year and now TheWeakie, meanwhile pepsi is known by a name he has never used. It's not the mod team's job to make sure player X can recognise player Y, it has too many variables out of the mod team's control.
We don't intend to tell people what their identities are. The rule changes just lower the frequency that you can do so. If Farms wanted to change his name to TheWheelie these changes would not affect that decision, as long as he didn't intend to swap it again within 6 months. Pepsi's name comes from a purposeful misreading of a username he had previously.
@thewheeiienoob said in Username rules updates:
I didn't post any serious response until the mod team declared they'd be going ahead with the changes anyway, despite the negative backlash, so I hope they make the effort to clarify and focus their intention in a future post.
First and foremost I want to admit we fucked up. We should not have made the original post and then same day enforced the new restrictions. That's our bad, we fucked up, and in the future we'll try to provide time for feedback in similar situations.
Second, the up and down votes on the initial post never have and never will dictate moderation policy. For the simple reason that the people most likely people to provide input are the exact people most affected by the change. If we proposed a rule change that all smurfs are going to be unbanned, then we would expect the most feedback to be from people who have gotten banned for smurfing before. It can be used for an incredibly vague idea of community sentiment, but a mere 40 downvotes in a community of thousands is a near useless measure.
General thoughts
When I and some of the other moderators wrote this proposal, we never expected this to become a big deal. I'm honestly trying to avoid the "us vs them" mentality and to understand where this hate is coming from. I've done my best to outline what issues this has been causing and why we've gone in this direction. The responses thus far have mostly been "it's funny" and "why do you even need to know who people are?"
That's the whole reason for usernames is it not? If we truly don't care then we could go the 4chan route and list everyone as "Anonymous", but I don't see anyone proposing that.
Please, I'm genuinely asking, help me understand why a 6 month rename period is unacceptable to the point of having a 157 post thread on it.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
For convenience, here is a list of problems the reduction in rename frequency is meant to address:
- In-game communication
Who complained to you about it?
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
- Tournament player recognition
Who complained about it?
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
- Player reputation
Who said this was a problem?
Don't need names, just give me a total count of people telling the moderation team about these problems.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
I wanted to stress the ones above because it seems like there has been a focus on the benefits on the other side of the moderation curtain, which was not the intent.
Well yeah, because you're focused on benefits "for the community" when nobody "in the community" was complaining about any of the reasons you said above.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
- Ease of reporting the correct player
So how many false reports do you estimate are caused by this rename issue?
- Reduce impersonation (of moderators or otherwise)
That's not relevant at all to rename interval, make it a rule prohibiting it (which exists)
- Reduce the frequency of inappropriate usernames
How many of these offenses do you tie directly to rename periods rather than
- people picking an inappropriate username at account creation
- people malding (they will still mald and pick a bad rename even at 6 months)
- Make it harder to evade moderation action by rapid username changing
What is the number of people you gauge are doing this? Rapid being uhhhh one rename a month if done religiously? Make it two months if it's genuinely that big of a deal for you.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Again, I want to stress that these last 4 were never the primary reasons for this change, just additional benefits.
So surely some general quantity of people in the community that complained about said community issues exists for you to mention right? It isn't just moderators picking reasons that seem good and announcing this is what the community wanted?
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Example of name inconsistency being a problem
Recently Sladow (trainer team lead at the time) asked me to fix the trainer team avatars.
I'm going to skip most of this because this issue is insanely easy to solve. Give Sladow a screenshot of both of the screens you posted and have him figure it out, because he will know who is on his team and what their names are. I can do it for you right now and I play like 1-3 games a week max.
Another solution which I also did when I was cleaning up avatars as PC. Remove all the people that have said avatar, announce it to said group, and wait for people to message you to give it back or give it if they never had it. This is even easier now that Discord exists. Coordinate with the Team Lead over people that may not be on Discord and to double check everything is kosher.
These solutions took me 5 minutes to think about.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
a mere 40 downvotes in a community of thousands is a near useless measure.
Scientific? Definitely not that robust. Damn fine as a thumb in the wind, though.
Why post this here for feedback then lmao. The whole point of downvotes existing is to provide a quick way to say the idea is terrible without flooding a thread with "this idea is terrible" which granted, didn't exactly stop it though it definitely could have been much worse of a thread.
You have quite literally zero evidence of "community" support in any capacity so acting mighty about the fact a sample size is bad is just hilarious. You have zero sample size, your entire policy which by your own words is fundamentally built on being a COMMUNITY benefit and not a MODERATION benefit (on the rename interval) has ZERO grounding in said COMMUNITY. It's moderators sitting in a Discord chat going "you know I got annoyed in this Gyle cast so we should change this for the community."
@ftxcommando said in Username rules updates:
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Example of name inconsistency being a problem
Recently Sladow (trainer team lead at the time) asked me to fix the trainer team avatars.
I'm going to skip most of this because this issue is insanely easy to solve. Give Sladow a screenshot of both of the screens you posted and have him figure it out, because he will know who is on his team and what their names are. I can do it for you right now and I play like 1-3 games a week max.
Another solution which I also did when I was cleaning up avatars as PC. Remove all the people that have said avatar, announce it to said group, and wait for people to message you to give it back or give it if they never had it. This is even easier now that Discord exists. Coordinate with the Team Lead over people that may not be on Discord and to double check everything is kosher.
These solutions took me 5 minutes to think about.
Just a small comment as I find some of the arguments already funny at this stage.
In a store, at the cashier, would you like the cashier to manually radio check 30% of all the grocery prices for all the people in the queue? No? Would the cashier like to do it, probably not. Would the store like it to be that way, no? Would anyone? Maybe a new person who gets a job out of solving those price checks all day in and out.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Recently Sladow (trainer team lead at the time) asked me to fix the trainer team avatars.
List of players who have the personal trainer avatar.
List of players who should have the personal trainer avatar
I canāt just compare these two lists because the usernames are different. Autopsy- has the avatar, but is he supposed to? I have to look up the account Autopsy- and then look up his old usernames, and only then can I figure out itās (probably) Grimplex. It might not even be grimplex, because what if he username traded with someone at some point?
Now say Grimplex didnāt have the avatar but was supposed to. I look up the name Grimplex and there are no results. Okay so he uses a different name at the moment. I look up all accounts which have ever had the username Grimplex and there are multiple results. Now I have to go through account by account to make an educated guess which one of these is actually the person I want to grant the avatar to. Now repeat this for potentially all 14 members of the trainer team.
This is such a tiny and rare scenario that has absolutely nothing to do with renames being once every month instead of once every seventy light years. Almost all of the players have exactly the same names on both lists, and it will take approximately 30-45 seconds to look up the other 3 that changed their names.
Alternatively, just ask sladow about it, like FTX said earlier.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
This has come up multiple times in our internal discussions. Personally I think it's the worst of both worlds. It doesn't solve our main concern in that you have to take extra steps to determine who someone is. If you've gone so far as to pull up the account data it's only one extra click to see their name history. Heck accounts already have IDs, they're just not easy to pull up. Let's say I told you that account 118363 did XYZ. Does that give you any useful information? No, because you have no idea who account 118363 is. Well that's Giebmasse/Viba. You'd have no way of knowing that unless you exhaustively went through accounts one by one until you found a matching ID. Are you expected to now memorize a 6 digit number for each player you might want to identify?
In my opinion (which isn't necessarily held by the rest of the moderation team) adding an ID section like that, especially in the lobby, just adds more visual garbage without actually solving anything.
Believe it or not, but you actually do not have to memorize anything to moderate effectively. the Silent Majority
of the players do not have similiar usernames that are abusing I's and l's, and you can punish them just by comparing two names: one in the report, one in the game that was reported.
And for the players with similiar names, just add these ID numbers to the left of f11 disconnection menu or somewhere else hidden, so they dont clutter the normal UI.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
a mere 40 downvotes in a community of thousands is a near useless measure.
Then go ahead, send an email with a survey to every single email that was used to register a FAF account, and ban people that refuse to respond within 1-2 weeks.
I dont get why do you complain about only 40 downvotes on a random post made on a forum that is only visited by a small percentage of people.
Why does the most popular MrBeast video have only got 18m likes with 617m views? Thats less than 3% of people that liked the video.
Did the rest hate it? Should he take the video down?
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
When I and some of the other moderators wrote this proposal, we never expected this to become a big deal. I'm honestly trying to avoid the "us vs them" mentality and to understand where this hate is coming from. I've done my best to outline what issues this has been causing and why we've gone in this direction. The responses thus far have mostly been "it's funny" and "why do you even need to know who people are?"
That's the whole reason for usernames is it not? If we truly don't care then we could go the 4chan route and list everyone as "Anonymous", but I don't see anyone proposing that.
Please, I'm genuinely asking, help me understand why a 6 month rename period is unacceptable to the point of having a 157 post thread on it.
The problem is that FAF lacks any other means of self-expression.
Compare faf to any other popular game. They have skins, tags, banners, badges, achievements that you can pin to your profile, about me pages, roles, unique animations and tons of other cool things to make you unique.
Hell, even discord implemented some of those, because they understand how important it is for some people to be able to express themself and customize their profile.
and you want to take away the only way to change your in-game appearance in FAF, besides avatars, that are not available to the Majority of People.
@giebmasse said in Username rules updates:
Just a small comment as I find some of the arguments already funny at this stage.
In a store, at the cashier, would you like the cashier to manually radio check 30% of all the grocery prices for all the people in the queue? No? Would the cashier like to do it, probably not. Would the store like it to be that way, no? Would anyone? Maybe a new person who gets a job out of solving those price checks all day in and out.
You wouldnt believe it, but i have seen this happen several times. When a cashier did not have a pricing list for cigs/bread, they just asked the other cashiers/asked someone on radio to come help them out.
It is okay to communicate with the members of your team.
In terms of tournament recognition I personally would love to see a stream where TheWheelie (Farms) in this case would have to figure out who the 8 players are as they all have the same names.
Think it would make rather good casting.
The wheekienoob is attacking the wheekie while the ThewhekieNoob is fighting TheWhekeNoob
Ras Boi's save lives.
Since we are also on this debate.
If we cannot pay countries under sanctions.
Can we add Tournament prize for "1 Free Rename" as a reward?
Ras Boi's save lives.
Guys, I have an idea.
Lets makes a rule that all FAF usernames have to match Discord usernames, the community wants it because it will be easier for us to communicate with each other and not get confused because we're 7 years old and I'm sure the mods would love making things easier for themselves at our cost.
How many people have to tell the moderators they are completely wrong before they listen?how many people have to or uninstall before you realize this is total garbage?
@giebmasse said in Username rules updates:
@ftxcommando said in Username rules updates:
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Example of name inconsistency being a problem
Recently Sladow (trainer team lead at the time) asked me to fix the trainer team avatars.
I'm going to skip most of this because this issue is insanely easy to solve. Give Sladow a screenshot of both of the screens you posted and have him figure it out, because he will know who is on his team and what their names are. I can do it for you right now and I play like 1-3 games a week max.
Another solution which I also did when I was cleaning up avatars as PC. Remove all the people that have said avatar, announce it to said group, and wait for people to message you to give it back or give it if they never had it. This is even easier now that Discord exists. Coordinate with the Team Lead over people that may not be on Discord and to double check everything is kosher.
These solutions took me 5 minutes to think about.
Just a small comment as I find some of the arguments already funny at this stage.
In a store, at the cashier, would you like the cashier to manually radio check 30% of all the grocery prices for all the people in the queue? No? Would the cashier like to do it, probably not. Would the store like it to be that way, no? Would anyone? Maybe a new person who gets a job out of solving those price checks all day in and out.
Then give team leads avatar access in the mod client if the ājobā bothers you so much. I really do not understand the problem here beyond moderators wanting to keep their fiefdom but being angry at it requiring any brainpower.
Punishing the whole community because you canāt be bothered to do a like once every 3 years job of resetting some avatars and working through with a team lead? What?
Why are we even commenting on that fact that he Index is comparing faf-names to discord names? Did Index already create a discord-ticket to remove renames? Otherwise this comparison makes no sense
@deribus this is a quick response to your first reply, I will save a proper treatment of your 2nd reply for its own post.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Take a look at BlackYps screenshot, I have absolutely no idea who any of those people are. I assume "TheWheelie" is Farms, Sladow is one of them... and that's it.
My point is this: why does it matter if you don't know who we are? It would matter only if there were some moderator action to be taken. I won't comment on this right now as you go into a bit more detail in your 2nd post.
From a player to player perspective, I don't think I've ever seen you in game, so if we weren't in this thread together the chances of me knowing who you were (or vice versa) would be close to zero. If I gave you a 4v4 replay with an average rating of 400, chances are you wouldn't know who any of those players were either. This is why I think this update would affect higher rated "known" players disproportionately, and why it's flawed to use "player identity" in a player-player context as an argument.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
A lot of the arguments against this policy have boiled down to "I want to change my username more than every 6 months because it's funny." And then we reply "we might even agree that it's funny but it causes all these issues". "Nuh uh!"
I think this is where we need to get to, help us understand how much of a problem this is! All we have at the moment are vague mentions of impersonation, and the obvious "TheWheelie" renames which are the prime example of it being used as a joke, and not problematically. I think I can speak for a lot of us that the proposed changes were a big surprise, I am definitely not aware of rename abuse being a major issue in FAF. If it is, please let us know the scale of it, otherwise most people are just gonna assume you're killing a fun feature because of a few annoying cases.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
To paraphrase TheWheelieNoob (because rather appropriately, I don't know who that is):
See above, why does it matter if you don't know who I am, outside of taking moderator actions? My points stand on their own, I hope.
@deribus said in Username rules updates:
Why do you need to rename so often? Imagine you had a coworker and every week they went by a different name. Do you seriously not understand how that would be problematic and bother people?
The example here would be referring to nicknames. In the same vein, no matter what I rename myself the people who know me already will call me boom, the people who don't know already me will be confused either way as to who I am.
To reiterate, if I rename it doesn't bother the people I play with regularly, because they call me boom either way - my identity in game is not affected past a second or two of confusion. This only even applies at higher ratings where it's fairly important to know who people are to judge their performance.
Your second post is more extensive so this was just a quick reply to the first one, @IndexLibrorum I will respond to you as well in due time.