A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy

@Jip Can you help us out of toxicity here? Do you know anything about changes affecting destroyers vs submarines, from 7 oct 2022 to today? Concerning all factions and maybe Seraphime faction more than others? Or maybe you know who knows about it?

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

I dont know, when it started, but at 7 Oct 2022, all destros lost to subs in big quantitys. As I brought out
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/4951/torp-bombers-are-too-strong-vs-subs/8?_=1675259960008
After that it got fixed someday, without much talk. Might have been something about torp defences fireing in opposite direction? So I checked it, and Sera destros did just fine against subs. Probably when @MazorNoob checked also. It was kind of big thing, who would not have noticed it, all destros losing to subs? And those who did the fixing and all. I dont see much to prove here. No need to look for replays, rather how could someone not know?
And so today Sera destros lose against t2 subs in big quantitys again...

The only change I recall is improving the sera destro firing cycle in the Nov 2021.

To clarify, I checked Sera destroyer behaviour just a few weeks ago. Unless a navy balance change happened in a past month, that's no proof that Sera destros used to beat sub hunters.

@Tagada When I wrote the comment (7 Oct 2022), all destroyers lost to subs massvise, when in big quantitys. Then they stopped losing to subs a part UEF of course. And now Seraphim destroyers lose to t2 submarines in big quantitys again.

@MazorNoob "I'm pretty sure last time I tested phim destroyer versus 2 sub hunters, it killed both with 30% of its health remaining. It actually did better than Cybran destroyer, which was left at around 25%." Destroyer having 30% of health left, is a symptom of winning against subs. Today I believe it is much less.

There were no other changes made though so this seems highly unlikely

@wikingest

History of blueprint files:

• Aeon: https://github.com/FAForever/fa/commits/deploy/fafdevelop/units/UAS0201/UAS0201_unit.bp
• UEF: https://github.com/FAForever/fa/commits/deploy/fafdevelop/units/UES0201/UES0201_unit.bp
• Cybran: https://github.com/FAForever/fa/commits/deploy/fafdevelop/units/URS0201/URS0201_unit.bp
• Seraphim: https://github.com/FAForever/fa/commits/deploy/fafdevelop/units/XSS0201/XSS0201_unit.bp

Appears to be no direct changes to support the observation. Perhaps there were changes in the projectile, but I'm not entirely sure. Could you point out a date when you think certain unit combinations were better / worse? I can checkout on a commit around that time and do a quick comparison for you

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

@MazorNoob "I'm pretty sure last time I tested phim destroyer versus 2 sub hunters, it killed both with 30% of its health remaining. It actually did better than Cybran destroyer, which was left at around 25%." Destroyer having 30% of health left, is a symptom of winning against subs. Today I believe it is much less.

In larger numbers it doesn't necessarily hold since torp defense of groups of ships stacks together. Pay attention to the thread. You're free to repeat my experiment, you'll get the same result.

@MazorNoob I was unable to get the same results as you. #19148471 Even if I spread out the subhunters, and totally mismicro, sending one in before other, Sera destro is left with 7.5% health. When subs are not mismicroed, destro has about 2% health left.

You told me to read properly but you missed out on multiple mentions that this is NOT about 1 destro vs 2 subs, it's about higher numbers, like 4 vs 8.

In which multiple cogent human beings temporarily lose awareness of the concept of scaling

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

I just ran a fast sandbox, and it seems that they are broken again. 1 Sera destro barely wins against 2 subhunters, but in bigger groups they get wrecked by subhunters. Althought maybe less than in the past...

@FemtoZetta My first post. As you can see, it never was about only 1 destro vs 2 subs.

Well whatever then, seems this thread is a mess already anyway with like 3 different discussions at the same time.

@melanol
put 10 sera subs against 10 of any other faction. they lose, largely because they waste torp defense on the same torpedo. 1 on 1 its even, as number increase sera lose markedly. can confirm for cybran and uef, never tested aeon ill be honest

When you thought your post was not controversial but you come back to this comment section lol.

Also, back to main point, sera needs a torp relevant buff at at least one tech. I actually think its ok if sera destro sucks in mass if the t1 or t3 sub is actually good enough to compensate (which it currently is not).

Why in the world are you making 10 t1 subs anyway

@exselsior I think you are hitting on a good point, which is that t1 subs are generally minimally viable across the board in most cases. but regardless, I still hold that the sera t1 change would be beneficial for both faction diversity and balance.

Last time I tested torp defence I found it unreliable. Also not very efficacious due to the long reload time.

A general rebalance of torps and torp defence (including vs torp bombers) would be nice to see.

The solution: torp defence on sera sonar.