Increase vision & radar ranges of all units by some 10-20%
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What is the skill in having the big air blob, sending air around to find tiny enemy air blob, and then never losing intel so you always win the fight? Why is that more skill than properly managing spy plane intel alongside your air blob?
What about strat rush micro where you need several spy planes to give vision? Why is having to micro that rather than just a blob of asf that can see and catch anything that threatens the strat less skill?
I've seen players kill the critical air units with less ASF (air fights) or a few ASF (smart targeting on strat) which seem like vastly superior signs of skill than just forever having good intel so game reverts to even more macro scaling maximization.
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maybe increase vision of SCOUTS? or maybe make air scouts same speed and turnrate as inties so you can use them together with inties...
TA4Life: "At the very least we are not slaves to the UI" | http://www.youtube.com/user/dimatularus | http://www.twitch.tv/zlo_rd
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IMO It's just actively the opposite direction I'd want the game to go in right now. Giving more intel makes the game even easier and simple unless it comes along with lots of counter-intel options so you can actually play around it. I don't get what skill more intel is supposed to allow for except for making it even harder to win with the lower mass concentration or make some units like mongoose and hoplite (and in turn snipers) more significant.
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Good idea but that should be a toggle, otherwise you’re nerfing scout planes… but maybe now that control groups are better you can just tell a scout plane to assist an interceptor then just put your interceptors on a control key and micro that
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Let's change circles with unit pov direction, so he will see only what is in from of him xD
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@ftxcommando said in Increase vision & radar ranges of all units by some 10-20%:
IMO It's just actively the opposite direction I'd want the game to go in right now. Giving more intel makes the game even easier
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I oppose this change.
Scouting is already overpowered in FAF. Take a game like Age of Empires 2. There are no air scouts. If your opponent walls you can't even see what he is doing. You get only 1 scout for the early game and if you lose it then you are shit out of luck.
The only change I would make is to increase the water vision on t1 and t3 scouts. I sometimes fly a spy plane directly over a nuke sub/sub/commander and the plane doesn't even scout them. For some reason the water vision on scout planes is pathetic.
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@accidental_aeon said in Increase vision & radar ranges of all units by some 10-20%:
I oppose this change.
Scouting is already overpowered in FAF. Take a game like Age of Empires 2. There are no air scouts. If your opponent walls you can't even see what he is doing. You get only 1 scout for the early game and if you lose it then you are shit out of luck.
The only change I would make is to increase the water vision on t1 and t3 scouts. I sometimes fly a spy plane directly over a nuke sub/sub/commander and the plane doesn't even scout them. For some reason the water vision on scout planes is pathetic.
If scouting is overpowered, then nerf scouts, not vision.
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I think we've seen enough - we're picking this up. It won't be for the next release as it requires manually tweaking all the units in question. The only question now is: by how much should they be increased? We can talk about balancing units (like scouts) afterwards.
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I'd suggest a blanket (absolute) change rather than a % based change - i.e. the issue I see is the lag between two units moving towards each other and this being picked up. This delay will be affected by the units' speed, rather than the visual range, hence the delay for the unit to show up once it is inside visual/intel range is the same whether you're talking about a unit with poor vision and intel or large intel/vision.
I also think it should cover buildings that give intel/vision, since they're also affected just to a lesser extent, with buildings getting half of the boost (since the building wont be moving, so the maximum potential distance a unit can move inside intel/visual before being spotted is reduced to just 1 unit's speed, instead of the combined speed of 2 units).
T1 tanks move between 3.4-3.7 speed while T1 mobile arti are <=2.9 speed. I'm assuming (without doing detailed testing to confirm) that there might be a lag of 1 second between a unit entering vision/radar and being picked up as such.
That would suggest an increase of around 6 might mean you almost always have visual/intel of a unit that you would expect to at current ranges. However it would also lead to lots of cases where you get visual/intel outside of the current range. I'd therefore go for half of this to strike a balance, i.e. a +3 increase to visual and intel of all mobile units, and then have structures having half this (so +1.5) benefit.
I also don't see a big issue with scouts or radar benefiting from such a blanket increase - in relative terms it'd effectively be a nerf by being an absolute increase to all units and hence meaning those units function slightly better without radar/land scouts than before.
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I disagree on mostly all points on this. This is supcom which has its roots in ta, and shouldn't compare ourselves to a game like aoe2 which is a totally different game with a totally different lore. Back in those days you could see your enemies hours before you could shoot at them. Supcom has high tech weaponry that can shoot farther then they units can see. Playing ta you often got shot at and not seeing what was shooting at you.
If changing Intel is needed, this is not what needs to be done, if anything we need to reduce vision. If players want a balance like aoe2, they need to play that game (sorry harsh)
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@veteranashe i enjoy ta and fa but they are very different especially in the area of intel. In my opinion we should not look to add back in issues from an old game. So your point is bad (sorry harsh).
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I do think we need more vision to makeup for the fact that units take a bit longer to process enemy units incoming. Its specially an annoying experience when your t1 bomber can't see an engie that you scouted because there is a delay in when things "appear" in radar/game sometimes.
Overall would improve the experience as long as its a small tweak (5-15% more vision) because we dont want radars and scouts to become useless
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Even in top level games people hardly scout or look at what they scout. I have a hard time seeing how having more intel is going to hurt the game.
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I support the proposed change. More unit vision range and especially T1 + T2 radar range is a good thing and should help reduce the absurd scout and t1 radar spam that we got so used to.
However, I can also see the argument about scouting being quite easy compared to other RTS games. Scout planes that can quickly fly over the map, are nearly impossible to intercept, and get full vision of an enemy's base or army are quite unique within the RTS community, and undoubtedly already very strong. So I would propose to exclude scout planes and some other high-visibility units (cruisers) from this change.
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You should be rewarded by bringing scouts with your attack forces so that they can target enemies easier. Scouts are very cheap and good at their jobs. I really hope that vision range isn't buffed by more than 10%
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@spikeynoob said in Increase vision & radar ranges of all units by some 10-20%:
@veteranashe i enjoy ta and fa but they are very different especially in the area of intel. In my opinion we should not look to add back in issues from an old game. So your point is bad (sorry harsh).
Hey it's not harsh and supcom corrects a big problem in ta with radar shown on screen and automatic radar targeting.
I'm still concerned about cybran stealth as well.
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Maybe instead of vision give everything small radar?
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@casternumerouno said in Increase vision & radar ranges of all units by some 10-20%:
Maybe instead of vision give everything small radar?
That would make all scouts and radars practically useless.
~ Stryker
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We are literally speaking of radar that's just 1-3 clicks bigger than the view range so that the blip can show in around the time unit would enter the view range. Thinking that it will make radars and scouts useless is just laughable. Even more when we can compensate them with those 1-3 units of range.
Also it would require not buffing units that NEED radar to work, like hoplites, auroras etc. It's just one way to try skirting around the vision problem while also making sure that cybran ACU doesn't get utterly nerfed into oblivion.
