Solving the problem of keeping noob allies alive and active

One of the solutions could be proper unit supplies like in Starcraft/Warcraft, where, for example, T1 units cost 1 supply, T2 units cost 2, T3 cost 4, experimentals cost 20, game-enders cost 100, and supply is severely limited (not 1500 from the beginning). This way, even the weakest allies who are able so send units to fight are worth keeping alive.

Supply could be provided by SACUs (for example, 100 per SACU), but you can only have a limited supply of them alive (your commanding officers are not letting you risk too many persons in a robot fight). This also solves RAS SACU spam, and makes you actually build them when you don't need their RAS.

I don't think it's likely that something that will change the game that drastically will be adopted, but by all means feel free to make a mod for it.

In general though, the issue is solved by pointing your lowest player to the front with instructions along the lines of "See that enemy? If he so much as stacks two stones on top of each other I want them kicked over and on fire". When that player then dies and your higher rated player inherits the base, the problem is addressed.

@indexlibrorum It's not solved if the solution is to send them to die right away

@melanol Sure it is. They get valuable battlefield experience and actually play actively, while the rest of the team gets a boost to their eco.

I mean, sure this does sound like it’ll create an incentive to keep lower rated players alive because then you get more total units. But this is basically just a restricted unit cap with a few extra steps since you can expand the cap with SACUs and now population impact is different by unit tier.

Could be an interesting mod in a custom tournament or custom lobbies. Absolutely will not ever be added to base FAF though.

@exselsior You can expand with SACUs, but not infinitely, and with higher tier units costing a lot of supply, you would still want that noob in your team.

@indexlibrorum Would you want to be that noob? "Hey, your rating is too low. Could you please gift your entire base to me and go suicide your com please? Appreciate". Way to expand the playerbase.

@melanol I'd much rather be the new player assigned to the frontline position and told to fight than be assigned to a rear type position and left to do what I want.

I very nearly quit FAF for just that reason as a new player - I joined some setons games and did well at mid (even getting a kill against my opposite number before quickly overextending mu acu and dying in my first game); then with c.10 games to my name I joined a lobby where my team thought it would be a great idea to ignore me saying I had 0 experience as an air player and stick me on the air slot instead of mid. End result was me being flamed for the enemy team's experienced air player crushing our team.

As to the post suggestion, you can achieve a lot of the desired effect with a really low unit cap that doesn't get shared on death (which I think is an option? unless it's changed), although I suppose a mod could refine it to make it a bigger incentive to keep teammates alive (since the unit cap treats 1 mantis as equal to 1 megalith).

Personally I wouldn't want to play with it, but I could see how it might appeal to some.

As to whether it's possible, I don't know if it's possible to adjust how the unit cap works directly to make some units count as 'extra' units, but if not a workaround could be to adjust an individual player's unit cap maximum so it is decreased where a T2+ unit is built which would have the same effect.

Just disable unit cap sharing in the lobby ‍️

@melanol If you're going to twist what I'm saying and put words in my mouth, we can't have a conversation bud.

@melanol said in Solving the problem of keeping noob allies alive and active:

@indexlibrorum Would you want to be that noob? "Hey, your rating is too low. Could you please gift your entire base to me and go suicide your com please? Appreciate". Way to expand the playerbase.

I genuinely rather be told to "go get them beast" while playing for example mid on setons than be relegated to sitting on some shitty 4 mex spot and being told to do nothing but make engies...

It's PVP RTS game, not an offline city builder...

@endranii said in Solving the problem of keeping noob allies alive and active:

It's PVP RTS game, not an offline city builder...

Thats news to me

Best way to learn is on the front line. Seton's mid is how I went from bad to less bad.

@melanol said in Solving the problem of keeping noob allies alive and active:

@exselsior You can expand with SACUs, but not infinitely, and with higher tier units costing a lot of supply, you would still want that noob in your team.

You missed everything I said. I said it would work for what you want but it will never be anything other than a mod, but you can get close(ish) with game settings without mods.

I'd feel much better dying and letting competent players take control than knowing I'm reluctantly being kept alive for the additional unit cap, even though I'm losing the game for my team. Plus unit cap is not a fun game mechanic.

I'm the type of person who feels bad about inconveniencing others and would never play team games where I'm lower rated than the rest of the team. Unless you are playing with friends, or a group of players that like to help new people, you should expect to be treated as a nuisance. It's really nothing specific to FAF, it's just how the world works. If you frequently choose to be the odd man out, and are unhappy with being treated like the odd man out, then that's on you. I don't really care about catering to such people and trying keeping them around.

You can always develop your skills in 1v1 or just play with similarly rated players.

You should join our mapgen games some time soon tommy, we're mostly all pretty casual and welcoming so you wont need to feel this way

Weak allies are not worth keeping alive.

It's better to let them die, and let a more skilful player take command of their resources and territory.

as a 1200 im happy to be a 2k's minion, this way i learn at least something. and i already accomplished my goals if i can buy time for our team on front and waste higher rated players apm:P

Had to log in to point out that the "Let the new player suffer" approach to these things is how you drive away new players or ensure ones who need to learn don't learn

Teach them. Help them. Don't send them to the front to die so YOU can get the satisfaction of winning in spite of their defeat. It's not fun in the least to have to sit and stare (or more likely just leave) because someone significantly better than you refused to actually help you get the ropes and instead tossed you out the door to be killed

Sink or Swim logic results in a lot of dead children, so to speak

A little off topic, I played the game many many years ago not at any competitive level, just having a blast building defences. But we all knew the vanilla game would lag hard late game. Then literally last week stumbled on FAF and wow its amazing, even tried BAR but it has nothing on FAF.

Now getting to my point, noob player doing some multiplayer, everyone was super nice, helpful and we won. I know there is a skill gap but educating us noobs really does help to bridge a large gap and make the game more enjoyable for all. Make the game welcoming for newbies, grown the player base and keep this community thriving in a positive attitude manner that I've come to see.