Satellite overperforming.

maudlin27

It's good on open maps with spread out mexes, it's terrible on maps at the other extreme like astro. It's also a rare unit that isn't typically better to spam lots of (vs alternatives - e.g. 1 T3 arti and 1 novax is usually going to be better than 3 novax) which I like, and removing all intel/vision effects would lessen that to a significant effect.

Since UEF get their T3 arti highlighted in the first game many people will play (UEF mission 1) I'd also hate to see the Duke removed altogether.

It also makes sense thematically to me for a satellite to provide some sort of intel. That said, I don't feel strongly about it having omni vision or good radar - if it was to have its intel nerfed I'd rather it was along those lines but its vision was retained.

Noble_Ice

@maudlin27 just nerf the damn thing and let cybrans live longer

veteranashe

We have had this same busted conversation many times.

I think the cost should be massively decreased and it's only a spy sat, with the sat able to do a upgrade for the weapon which would put the cost to what it is now, then when the building gets shot down the mass gets deposited on your enemy.

Noble_Ice

@veteranashe i like your idea, but our balance despots will just dawn vote your comment like my. the more we talk about nerfing uef. how do we shot dawn(idea)?

MazorNoob

I'll risk a stupid, maybe incendiary question: isn't Novax strictly better than telemazer? Considering:

It's arguably cheaper when you factor in T3 pgen costs,
It doesn't put your commander in harm's way,
It can't be killed at the location it's attacking,
It's expensive to defend from in a different way: while telemazer is more expensive to protect from if you want the targeted thing to survive, it's less expensive to make some strats than to shield everything if you just want the ACU to die, and ACUs are irreplaceable,
It can target surface of open water unlike mazer,
It can be scaled up indefinitely unlike mazer,
It gives free intel.

I'm not sure if telemazer's being harder to scout and more effective at one-way suicide bombing makes up for this.

Noble_Ice

@mazornoob it's especially good if you don't want to play anymore and rush into the enemy base and do as much damage as possible. but the balance despots plan to change the teleport distance so that won't apply either.

I think satellite is better, but it's easier for me to defend myself from telemasors than satellites

you can only shield against satellites. then you have to prepare a massive attack on the enemy to destroy the novax and if you don't succeed you have donated so much mass to him that you automatically lose, while he is targeting you all the time or you manage to destroy him and then you have donated so much mass that there is no point in playing anymore, just he will then build 10 satellites because he has 20 kennels in the corner of the map that move all over the map collecting the mass you donated to him.

it would be good if SMD had the ability to build a special rocket that could destroy the satellite
balance despot are not interested in this novelty.

Zeldafanboy

@noble_ice said in Satellite overperforming.:

@mazornoob it's especially good if you don't want to play anymore and rush into the enemy base and do as much damage as possible. but the balance despots plan to change the teleport distance so that won't apply either.

I think satellite is better, but it's easier for me to defend myself from telemasors than satellites

you can only shield against satellites. then you have to prepare a massive attack on the enemy to destroy the novax and if you don't succeed you have donated so much mass to him that you automatically lose, while he is targeting you all the time or you manage to destroy him and then you have donated so much mass that there is no point in playing anymore, just he will then build 10 satellites because he has 20 kennels in the corner of the map that move all over the map collecting the mass you donated to him.

If you can’t destroy his base with 10 novaxes worth of mass then that’s a skill issue

FtXCommando

I would trade a novax for any direct fire t4 in 13 picoseconds.

I cannot even fathom how you arrive at a conclusion comparing telemazer to novax, might as well as compare interceptors to destroyers.

The difference is you’re not supposed to shield everything against a novax, you can rebuild dead loose mexes. There’s going to be large reclaim piles, you’re likely making mass fabs. You lose some efficiency but enemy spent 40k on a t4 that is only paying itself off in the next half a dozen minutes. It requires a major advantage in some theater (telemazer is not a tool where you hold advantage) because you’re 40k down in any of air/land/navy and if you’re fine with spending that you’re also generally at the point in the game you’re looking to find the win condition (novax is slow, telemazer is not). Most of the time, novax is supporting t3 arty which you are then building to break something actually important at this stage of the game.

Wanna argue it’s not fun go nuts, it’s really not that good. It’s an initial B tier t4 than falls to low C after the first one in a faction roster of D tier t4s.

In general t4s function as breakpoints. A GC is excellent because it not only wins a key fight but maintains control over it to enable you to use the reclaim and either snowball further or support other operations. A washer is excellent because it can prevent large concentrations of force without directly committing itself beyond the drop period. T3 arty is great because it pinpoints enemy win conditions late game, and if there are none it kills power which is the lynchpin for mass income. Nukes are great because they not only kill things, but deny the reclaim for the enemy without directly risking a commitment on your end. Novax just kills stuff on the enemy side in an annoying way (intel is good tho). Everything does that, it doesn't further you much at all. You don't win control over anything nor is anything important dying. It's good to sit around and snipe shields during an arty war, of course. It's a decent supplement to another win condition.

MazorNoob

@ftxcommando said in Satellite overperforming.:

I cannot even fathom how you arrive at a conclusion comparing telemazer to novax, might as well as compare interceptors to destroyers.

They both can reach any point of the map regardless of enemy action and destroy any single target that wasn't covered with relatively expensive, small area of effect countermeasures. They're similar to each other the same way each is similar to a nuke. Nukes and tele have seen arguments of being too powerful relative to per-area cost of their counter and were nerfed a few times, but the same argument made against novax is dismissed, arguing that once the defenses (that on some maps can cost more than the novax) are up, novax becomes useless. But wasn't it the case with telemazer and nukes as well?

TheWeakie

a novax cost 36k mass for 250 dps
mazer cost 25k mass for 3000 dps

once the mazer is done you can teleport anywhere in 25 seconds
once the novax is done you have to move it across the map to location (usually made on 15km+ maps) which takes longer plus it shows your enemy its presence so they can respond to it if needed
since you SEE where the novax is going you know who he's going to target so generally speaking only 1/2 players have to worry about it until it moves somewhere else unlike tele which is a concern for everybody at the same time instantly after it's finished
mazer can also tele under shields rendering them useless unless you have multiple overlapping shields

The moment a telemazer acu finished the entire enemy team better has 60k mass in defenses ready at that exact moment, but the moment a novax finishes the enemy team needs nothing in particular, especially since by that time you have some random shields around your base to protect important buildings against air (which are irrelevant vs mazer since they just tele under the shields). Even if you don't have time to build shields it doesn't really matter if you lose a few mexes since you can just instantly rebuild them after dropping some t3 engies there. The main damage is apm drain, but then again the novax player is microing his novax as well.

STlNG

Imagine Novax has a defensive role. Remove the ability to hit ground targets. Give it TMD, and maybe even some AA, and keep the intel. Then use it in coordination with the Fatty. Maybe it spawns with the Fatty and dies if the Fatty dies.

MazorNoob

@thewheelie said in Satellite overperforming.:

a novax cost 36k mass for 250 dps
mazer cost 25k mass for 3000 dps

4k for lazer + 15k for tele leaves 6k for pgens. Making tele on 5k energy income will take a while.

mazer can also tele under shields rendering them useless unless you have multiple overlapping shields

And Novax is immune to PDs and air. Different units, different counters.

The moment a telemazer acu finished the entire enemy team better has 60k mass in defenses ready at that exact moment

You probably already protect anything that's 30k+ worth of mass in a concentrated spot, and anything else can be sacrificed and countered by having 15 or so fighter-bombers ready to respond.

but the moment a novax finishes the enemy team needs nothing in particular, especially since by that time you have some random shields around your base to protect important buildings against air (which are irrelevant vs mazer since they just tele under the shields).

Sure? Different units, different uses. Novax can freely target anything risk-free, mazor has to pay itself off because it's usually a one-wat trip. Complaining that you can't snipe a shielded anti with Novax is like complaining that teleporting somewhere to kill 2 T3 mexes is not worth it and a suicide half the time. It's not like 2-3 properly overlapping shields don't protect against tele anyway, especially with how it just refuses to fire if you tele too close.

Even if you don't have time to build shields it doesn't really matter if you lose a few mexes since you can just instantly rebuild them after dropping some t3 engies there. The main damage is apm drain, but then again the novax player is microing his novax as well.

Can't Novax target wrecks? If they can, then it's something like 100 mass/second damage when attacking a T3 mex until everyone makes a Novax's worth of mass in shields. Either way as long as the enemy doesn't expend this much mass in shields you'd still be ahead, wouldn't you?

TheWeakie

@mazornoob said in Satellite overperforming.:

4k for lazer + 15k for tele leaves 6k for pgens. Making tele on 5k energy income will take a while.

Making novax on 0 e income also takes a while wonder why you didn't mention that 4head

9/10 times when someone makes telemazer (or novax) it's late enough in the game for a team to have 50k+ e income in total and on average people tend to overflow e in that stage in the game (since e stalls become way more impactfull), so you generally almost never need to make more than 2 t3 pgens and some storage

And Novax is immune to PDs and air. Different units, different counters.

Sure? Different units, different uses. Novax can freely target anything risk-free, mazor has to pay itself off because it's usually a one-wat trip. Complaining that you can't snipe a shielded anti with Novax is like complaining that teleporting somewhere to kill 2 T3 mexes is not worth it and a suicide half the time. It's not like 2-3 properly overlapping shields don't protect against tele anyway, especially with how it just refuses to fire if you tele too close.

You are in no position to say "different units different uses different counters" since you are the one who started making the novax/telemazer comparison. If you think they cannot be compared you shouldn't have started the comparison to begin with.

Aside from that you're completely missing the point. Mazer needs to pay itself of yes, but it does that by simply existing since making it already indirectly pays for itself, while for a novax this is completely not the case considering there is a huge opportunity cost added to it.

Also i've seen paragons protected by 15 shields die to well positioned telemazers.

You probably already protect anything that's 30k+ worth of mass in a concentrated spot, and anything else can be sacrificed and countered by having 15 or so fighter-bombers ready to respond.

Protect from what? You have shields and sams yes, but like i said shields are way less usefull against tele so u need pd's instead. If you have fb's instead of pd's you can still buy way more time by dodging and the entire air grid will be dead by the time you kill the acu. An important difference is that shielding against a novax usually benefits you in another way later on, like protection against air or arty's/game enders, but defending against telemazer doesn't benefit you in any other way.

Can't Novax target wrecks? If they can, then it's something like 100 mass/second damage when attacking a T3 mex until everyone makes a Novax's worth of mass in shields. Either way as long as the enemy doesn't expend this much mass in shields you'd still be ahead, wouldn't you?

In a perfect world with correct play you would only need to protect 1 mex at a time from a novax. Since it can't 1 shot mexes you will just follow it around with like 2 boys in a transport to insta make a shield after the volley is over protecting every single mex. Now ofc this is quite far from reality but you can go halfway there easily.

EVEN if you don't protect any of your mexes, as long as you instantly rebuild the first dead mex after the novax moves away it's still barely any damage the novax is doing.

2 cycles to kill a t3 mex = 40 sec / mex
to rebuild the mex its 2300 mass(since u start at 50%, if the novax groundfires it its lowered but that also requires more novax cycles so i figured it evens out) / 40 = 57,5 mass/s the novax is costing you if you don't build shields on your mexes and just rebuild.

Now there's 2 scenario's. The first is when the game is a static eco game and someone makes a novax. the 36k investment in the novax is more than enough to get 60 mass/s extra eco for the other players (5 ras boys which is the same cost almost gets that, and they are the most inefficient). Ofc these games usually tend to lead to arty wars which is the main thing the novax is usefull at, but until they are build you can basically negate the novax.

The second scenario is when it is an active game (late game ofc) and 99/100 times a novax is straight up a terrible move because it's a big investment with an incredibly long pay off time.

snoog

There's nothing I hate more about this game than the Novax and I can't wait for the day something, literally anything about it is changed.

On that note, since no one ever goes for the making it vulnerable to SMD idea, and I'm not much of a numbers guy to offer a stat change, what if we give the Novax something akin to fuel? So that you can't just have satellites permanently loitering over the enemy. They either need to go back to "refuel" or more realistically new ones need to make launched because old ones fall from orbit or some shit. Idc the reasoning behind it, but as I said, I just can't wait for SOMETHING about it to change.

Arran

@snoog The fuel idea is possibly the most novel and creative fix suggestion for the satellite I've ever seen. It is interesting to think about and has potential.
I still think removing the intel of the satellite is better, since it directly reduces the versatility of the satellite without impacting its direct effectiveness, but that's probably my bias to my own idea talking.

MazorNoob

@thewheelie said in Satellite overperforming.:

Making novax on 0 e income also takes a while wonder why you didn't mention that 4head

Does Novax cost 2 million e to build?

9/10 times when someone makes telemazer (or novax) it's late enough in the game for a team to have 50k+ e income in total and on average people tend to overflow e in that stage in the game (since e stalls become way more impactfull), so you generally almost never need to make more than 2 t3 pgens and some storage

If we're talking so late in the game that e costs no longer matter then the opposing team should afford tele def anywhere they have antinuke anyway.

You are in no position to say "different units different uses different counters" since you are the one who started making the novax/telemazer comparison. If you think they cannot be compared you shouldn't have started the comparison to begin with.

Yes I am. Nukes are yet another "target anywhere on the map, has a specific per-area cost counter that you need ahead of time" weapon that has yet another counter with different numbers. Doesn't make the underlying mechanics much different.

Aside from that you're completely missing the point. Mazer needs to pay itself of yes, but it does that by simply existing since making it already indirectly pays for itself, while for a novax this is completely not the case considering there is a huge opportunity cost added to it.

How is paying 20k mass and 2 million e for a telemazer not an opportunity cost?

Also i've seen paragons protected by 15 shields die to well positioned telemazers.

And I've seen navy production completely denied by 2 novaxes, what of it? Anectodal evidence is anecdotal.

Protect from what? You have shields and sams yes, but like i said shields are way less usefull against tele so u need pd's instead. If you have fb's instead of pd's you can still buy way more time by dodging and the entire air grid will be dead by the time you kill the acu.

Fighter-bombers obviously won't protect the telemazer target in the first place sure, that's the job for T2 PDs. Their purpose is to ensure the first tele is the last one, and this they can do no problem.

An important difference is that shielding against a novax usually benefits you in another way later on, like protection against air or arty's/game enders, but defending against telemazer doesn't benefit you in any other way.

This I concede in part. Shields alone won't protect you from units or nukes and nobody uses T3 arty to target random T3 mexes.

Conceding the Novax DPS analysis, except again, you have to factor in the cost of shielding all the mexes where otherwise you wouldn't bother because SAMs stop strats and no one will nuke/arty/Asswasher random lone T3 mexes.

Nex

@mazornoob said in Satellite overperforming.:

If we're talking so late in the game that e costs no longer matter then the opposing team should afford tele def anywhere they have antinuke anyway.

People just naturally overbuild E late in the game, if you naturally hoard 50k mass then this will be true.
It's also not that E costs don't matter, but they are less relevant than mass costs, since if you at some point needed E for something you invested the mass already but the E production will continue for the rest of the game.

@mazornoob said in Satellite overperforming.:

Yes I am. Nukes are yet another "target anywhere on the map, has a specific per-area cost counter that you need ahead of time" weapon that has yet another counter with different numbers. Doesn't make the underlying mechanics much different.

A GC can also walk anywhere on the map and shoot things down so where's the difference?
The difference between a GC and a Novax is similar to the difference between a Novax and Telemazor. You can see and defend against a GC on it's way to its target, while you can only see the Novax and have to prepare defenses at it's target position + it's faster.
Telemazer you cannot intercept or even detect on it's way and it's also way faster than a sattelite.

@mazornoob said in Satellite overperforming.:

How is paying 20k mass and 2 million e for a telemazer not an opportunity cost?

That's just cost, the Novax needs to travel to places and the enemy can just concentrate on building defenses where it's going. against telemazer you need your defenses up everywhere at all times.

@mazornoob said in Satellite overperforming.:

Fighter-bombers obviously won't protect the telemazer target in the first place sure, that's the job for T2 PDs. Their purpose is to ensure the first tele is the last one, and this they can do no problem.

As soon as you build your t2 pd you lost to the telemazer because making it is more expensive than the telemazer was. So while you think you just countered the tele, in fact you just lost some mass to the enemy.
Also because Telemazer is hard to scout and arrives very fast you need to start preparing such defenses even before a telemazer is out, so you need to invest in useless PDs in your core base just because your enemy is Cybran.

@mazornoob said in Satellite overperforming.:

Conceding the Novax DPS analysis, except again, you have to factor in the cost of shielding all the mexes where otherwise you wouldn't bother because SAMs stop strats and no one will nuke/arty/Asswasher random lone T3 mexes.

The math presented doesn't factor in shields because it assumes you don't build any. Making shields would be more effective, but even if you just rebuild the mexes destroyed by the Novax it's not that expensive, because it has such low dps.

Caliber

an idea i just had would be to turn the novax into a factory that has to build the satalites, kinda does this anyway when they get shot down.

base of novax could be cheaper with sats having increased build time and costs ect
with options of which satalite you want to make such as

*intel only sat
*defense sat that does more dps but has a range limit
*current sat, renamed to something like offensive sat without intel just vision

just an creative idea

A Former User

@caliber And they all die when their host factory dies? Or do they become immortal beings?

ThomasHiatt

Make the satellite build walls so you can troll your opponents and write stuff in their bases.