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Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?

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  • M Offline
    maudlin27
    last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 18:05

    In terms of the current position/rules, to fall within the 'breaking the game' rule I think it would need to be clearer cut/more damaging than the deceiver effect. Discussing with other mods we're agreed that doing this with a deceiver isn't a reportable offence as the rules currently stand (i.e. you won't currently get banned for doing this).

    Of course that's a separate point to the more recent discussions about whether the interaction should be changed/fixed to prevent it being possible in the first place.

    M27AI and M28AI developer; Devlogs and more general AI development guide:
    https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v71-devlog
    https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5331/m28ai-devlog-v150

    C 1 Reply Last reply 17 Aug 2023, 18:36 Reply Quote 0
    • C Offline
      ComradeStryker @maudlin27
      last edited by ComradeStryker 17 Aug 2023, 18:36

      Anything else that is breaking the game in some fashion.

      I'd argue that these are arbitrary rules.
      Anything can basically fit in this category if you are technical enough.

      Megalith reclaiming wrecks is not an intended use but it isn't listed here as a bannable exploit.


      In fact, rule 3 is almost always broken by everyone.

      Using unit interactions to abuse pathfinding

      Can't block an ACU with units... that's a no no.


      I apologize if I sound 'snarky' here, but, what comes next after this?
      Do stealth fields only affect Cybran units?
      Mobile shields only shield damage to units from their own faction?

      What's the problem with mixing and matching a few units together?
      It has never been a problem before.
      These unit combos have been casted - and encouraged - dozens of times by well-known casters.
      Gyle, Willow, Duelist, etc.

      These are amazing plays and take time and multiple factions to pull off.


      THAT is faction Synergy.
      THAT is teamwork.
      THAT is FAF.

      Do not remove it.


      ~ Stryker

      ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • J Offline
        Jip
        last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 18:46

        @ComradeStryker Slippery slope argument is a fallacy

        The interaction being discussed is clearly unintended. No other unit that enters the Atlantis has this bug for example, except for Stingers with cargo:

        25eaf9e9-4853-479f-9b2b-d83795362b41-image.png

        And no, this is engine behavior. I can't fix this 😃

        A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

        C 1 Reply Last reply 17 Aug 2023, 19:05 Reply Quote 1
        • M Offline
          MazorNoob
          last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 19:00

          Would allowing Czars and Atlantis to hold transports make them OP?

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • F Offline
            FtXCommando
            last edited by FtXCommando 17 Aug 2023, 19:01

            If it’s an exploit then make a specific exploit of loading stingers filled with units in other transports, that’s the exploitive part not the deceiver being used.

            This interpretation is built to never be followed because it’s so rare, so unmalicious, and uses two different mechanics that are totally fine in the vast majority of use cases.

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • C Offline
              ComradeStryker @Jip
              last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 19:05

              @jip

              @ComradeStryker Slippery slope argument is a fallacy

              My mistake on that, but it was mentioned to make a point.
              Maybe it was a bad point, but I'd be sad to see this feature be 'removed'.

              The interaction being discussed is clearly unintended. No other unit that enters the Atlantis has this bug for example, except for Stingers with cargo:

              There are only two land units with (counter-intel) abilities.
              Sparky and Deceiver.

              UEF Frigates and T3 sonar have Jamming so that makes the Sparky & Jamming irrelevant.
              The Cybran Mermaid and T3 sonar have stealth, so that also makes Stealth also nearly irrelevant.
              The point is, there are easier ways to achieve the same goal, but only one of which is 'broken/bannable'?
              Yes, I can understand the point here of it not being interactable, meaning you can't do anything about it.

              But again, I'd argue that there are far more devastating strategies that can be found sooner.
              Cybran Strats have stealth, T2 subs, too.
              And as aforementioned, T1 frigates have Jamming.

              We're comparing only a few interactions here in which a T4 is related...
              as no other units are viable to do this 'bug' with.
              However, if T1/2/3 units have these abilities already - free at times - why is it really a problem for a T4 to have them?


              If anything it goes to show that players have to go out of their way to improve certain units as they have unacceptable performance. (Atlantis)

              It's a feature, just like LABs being able to shoot out of a transport.
              No other unit can do that.


              And no, this is engine behavior. I can't fix this 😃

              Still remains to be a bug or not.
              But it appears it may just be considering Tagada seemed against it.
              Unfortunate.


              ~ Stryker

              ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • T Offline
                TheWeakie
                last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 19:27

                Why are deceivers active in transports but my good friend the mobile shield not? Gg balance team

                F 1 Reply Last reply 17 Aug 2023, 20:43 Reply Quote 4
                • F Offline
                  FtXCommando
                  last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 19:31

                  I mean you're better off disabling all deceivers in transports or disabling the ability of all transportation capable of units from entering carriers than this weird random exploit rule.

                  If the argument is that it isn't intended by game mechanics, game mechanics showcase that transports aren't allowed in carriers so prohibit stingers from being in them.

                  If the argument is that deceivers are too strong in this insanely niche scenario, then prohibit them in the other 9 billion methods where they are actually way stronger.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • W Offline
                    WilloWisppsi
                    last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 19:32

                    In Cybran mission 4 the game tells you to put deceivers on transports

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                    • C Offline
                      ComradeStryker
                      last edited by ComradeStryker 17 Aug 2023, 20:26

                      If the issue is that a Czar and Atlantis can be stealthed,
                      then I would argue the case should be as follows:

                      If Stealthed aircraft are the issue; then remove Stealth from Cybran T3 aircraft.
                      If Stealthed subs are the issue; then remove Stealth from Cybran T2 subs.
                      If Stealthed T4 units are the issue; then remove Stealth from the Monkeylord and Soulripper.


                      As stated before, there are other units that have the same abilities and can be found far earlier in the tech tree.

                      This is also does not include the other (easier) methods of obtaining the same exact scenario given the same units as stated in an earlier post.


                      ~ Stryker

                      ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • F Offline
                        FtXCommando @TheWeakie
                        last edited by FtXCommando 17 Aug 2023, 20:43

                        @thewheelie said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                        Why are deceivers active in transports but my good friend the mobile shield not? Gg balance team

                        An actual comparison to this scenario would be:

                        "Mobile shields in transports are fine, however it is way too strong to have a mobile shield underwater that you can't hit so any usage of that specific unit in an atlantis is an exploit but everything else is ok"

                        Like uhhhhh what about the other dozen ways it is way stronger bro? Or why not just prohibit putting stingers in the carrier?

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • B Offline
                          Blade_Walker @Jip
                          last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 22:18

                          @jip said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                          if I'm not mistaken it is this category:

                          Anything else that is breaking the game in some fashion.

                          Not referring to stealth working on transports, that is fine. But a stealth field working from inside the Atlantis or CZAR is not. You can do other glitches with the described approach and it is definitely not intended. I just didn't have the time to fix them yet

                          Has anyone ever been banned for this 'exploit' or even reported? While not common I have seen it many casts over the years, and at most it was seen as a bit tryhard 🙂

                          This is also the downside of having such a general category, as one man's bug is another man's feature.

                          @tagada said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                          Anything that's inside another unit and can't be interacted with eg. inside a carrier shouldn't be able to give you or the carrying unit any advantage be it intel or counter-intel measures.

                          Should CZAR have omni ? Or Atlantis or any carrier for that matter? Load or build any spy plane and it suddenly has.

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • V Offline
                            veteranashe
                            last edited by 17 Aug 2023, 22:25

                            I would like to know how specifically this is a glitch or a bug?

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • E Offline
                              Eezyville @MazorNoob
                              last edited by 18 Aug 2023, 01:17

                              @mazornoob said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                              I think that common sense wise it makes sense for Atlantis to be stealthed, but isn't the Czar larger than deceiver's stealth field? I feel like Czar should be an exception because of that.

                              The Czar and Atlantis having stealth doesn't make sense. Their factions are not known for stealth. Atlantis having jamming makes more sense. If anything I think those two units should have flak along side their SAMs.

                              C 1 Reply Last reply 18 Aug 2023, 03:36 Reply Quote 0
                              • S Offline
                                SpikeyNoob Global Moderator
                                last edited by 18 Aug 2023, 02:21

                                https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/5329 Problem solved.

                                C 1 Reply Last reply 18 Aug 2023, 03:54 Reply Quote 3
                                • C Offline
                                  ComradeStryker @Eezyville
                                  last edited by 18 Aug 2023, 03:36

                                  @eezyville

                                  The Czar and Atlantis having stealth doesn't make sense. Their factions are not known for stealth. Atlantis having jamming makes more sense. If anything I think those two units should have flak along side their SAMs.

                                  All factions have Stealth fields. Should those be removed from all factions?
                                  If anything Aeon is more so the "vison" faction, should the SoothSayer be removed from Cybran?
                                  UEF is known for their HP. Shouldn't the Brick lose like 400 HP?
                                  Aeon is known to have specialized units and not multirole. Should their T3 gunship be removed?

                                  At this point, most faction themes have flown out the window.
                                  As they don't make sense or drastically affect balance if they do.

                                  You can linger here and there on specialized units but that's about it.


                                  ~ Stryker

                                  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • C Offline
                                    ComradeStryker @SpikeyNoob
                                    last edited by ComradeStryker 18 Aug 2023, 03:54

                                    @spikeynoob

                                    https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/5329 Problem solved.

                                    So the community has no say in this, then?
                                    It appears to me that so far it seems that mostly everyone here is against it from being removed.

                                    90% of the players here, have known for it to be a feature.
                                    Why is suddenly becoming a 'bug' now?

                                    I understand this may not be the best argument, but,
                                    If this was possible to do in the base game, and in FA;
                                    I'd say it was a feature, otherwise, that wouldn't have been possible to do, to begin with.

                                    Feature in SC & FA but instead a bug on FAF?
                                    That doesn't make sense. Why?


                                    ~ Stryker

                                    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

                                    J S 2 Replies Last reply 18 Aug 2023, 06:16 Reply Quote 1
                                    • J Offline
                                      Jip @ComradeStryker
                                      last edited by 18 Aug 2023, 06:16

                                      @comradestryker said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                                      So the community has no say in this, then?

                                      The balance and the game team are also part of that same community.

                                      @comradestryker said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                                      Feature in SC & FA but instead a bug on FAF?
                                      That doesn't make sense. Why?

                                      @jip said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                                      @ComradeStryker Slippery slope argument is a fallacy

                                      The interaction being discussed is clearly unintended. No other unit that enters the Atlantis has this bug for example, except for Stingers with cargo:

                                      25eaf9e9-4853-479f-9b2b-d83795362b41-image.png

                                      And no, this is engine behavior. I can't fix this 😃

                                      Still waiting for people to state that this is a feature, and not a clear engine bug caused by an edge case 🙂

                                      A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

                                      C M C 3 Replies Last reply 18 Aug 2023, 06:33 Reply Quote 0
                                      • C Offline
                                        ComradeStryker @Jip
                                        last edited by 18 Aug 2023, 06:33

                                        @jip

                                        Still waiting for people to state that this is a feature, and not a clear engine bug caused by an edge case 🙂

                                        Okay, well, that's... that's fair.


                                        ~ Stryker

                                        ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • M Offline
                                          MazorNoob @Jip
                                          last edited by 18 Aug 2023, 07:43

                                          @jip said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

                                          Still waiting for people to state that this is a feature, and not a clear engine bug caused by an edge case 🙂

                                          It's called "emergent behaviour". Just because developers did not explicitly anticipate it being a thing does not mean it's a bug. There's more of it in the game: moving units individually sometimes being better than together in formation, manually firing T2 PD with AoE for more range, diverting enemy AA with a gunship in order to mercy snipe, killing natural reclaim with bombers, CZAR beam damaging ASFs. Some of this was never considered an issue, some was even made easier (split move).

                                          Plus, a problem is something that causes trouble, right? Nobody's been stealthing their CZARs and Atlantis, so I don't see why this requires a solution. If anything I'd go the other way and allow limited numbers of transports with cargo to load onto Atlantis and CZAR.

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