How come you don't play ladder?
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@zeldafanboy said in How come you don't play ladder?:
This thread is terrible and it's actually featured on the news page of the FAF client-- why? It gives the wrong impression that ladder is unpopular, which is totally not true, but some people might just see the title and figure it's not worth queueing since apparently nobody plays it.
Well, the reason why it was promoted on FAF news is because I asked them to. No bribes or special deals for me - I asked and I got it.
That being said, I wanted to obtain some data from normal average Joe players and veterans, and it is my best odds of reaching both sides.
Furthermore, this not only helps me get valuable data but also helps balance teams, map makers, client developers, and plenty of others to understand some underlying root causes of player diminishment from ranked games.
I am not saying that they are evaporating at a rapid pace, but understanding some problems at a larger scale helps with solving them as well.
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@penguin_ said in How come you don't play ladder?:
Btw, I think a lot of the disagreement over the level of importance of BO's might have to do with different people having different definitions of what a BO is. I think some people mean BO in the sense of a very specific build order that is done for several minutes of the game, while some people just mean a relatively specific build order for the first 1-4 minutes, while some others might just mean the general level of familiarity and understanding of a map that a player typically gets after playing it a few times.
There is no confusion. If you think it’s “general familiarity” and then cite mapgen as some solution to this “general familiary bo problem” you are beyond delusional. I said it before in the discord:
If we had some dude go crybaby mode in the training channel about how he NEEDS map gen maps so that his 1st drone rush will be viable against the “bo wins” of hydro rush everyone would clown on him repeatedly. But 2000 rated dudes somehow think they’re above “general familiarity” learning and that their loss due to failing in long term scale is some ethereal “bo loss” that is different from this dude they would have no issue poking fun at.
Map gen solves issues of Tagada-tier BO farming ie what he said with his badlands sandbox. It does not solve realizing what mex/reclaim distribution makes matter and how to not gas your first 5 minutes. Luckily, you don’t see such BO gameplay except in tournaments with a serious prize. Ladder, whether premade or random maps, does not have much of any difference in prep between the two types of maps.
I asked Yudi how far his Ditch BO goes and he doesn’t even go beyond the 3rd factory before just winging it. I’m sure if you asked some of the dudes that complain about BO here they would say Yudi simply beat them due to BO and they would totally stand a chance in some ditch-style map gen, though.
Most people would probably have no issue admitting they're worse than Yudi, though. I guess the bigger BO loss conundrum is dudes losing to people they think they are better than and there surely cannot be a reason that needs more introspection than simple BO loss. As many people mentioned before, it's a lot easier to blame shit team in teamgames and so you do not see "BO loss gg" in teamgames like you do in ladder, where that excuse is removed and so you are left with pure copium instead. Funny enough, a lot of the higher-rated people here who complain about BOs are also dudes who follow the advice that you shouldn't blame your team for teamgame losses but look at how you could have carried games when you're looking to improve in that environment. But I guess BO stuff is different.
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I played a few ladder games many years ago, but competitive RTS just isn't my cup of tea. Too stressful, I can't focus on everything at once and I tend to micro/macro badly. All of these things would be solved with practice but I haven't taken the time to do it yet, so for now I either play against the AI or watch ladder replays, and realise that I don't suck that bad. Not so long ago I saw a 800 guy stalling on mass before he even finished his first mex, started three mexes and a factory at once, and waited like 30 seconds before realising he should send an engie to reclaim the 75+ wrecks by his base, then proceeded to cancel everything but his second factory and stall again.
So yeah, if I'm going to get this kind of opponent I might just give it a try, but chances are I'd become that very guy if I get too anxious. Over a game, yes.
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since everyone else is talking about build orders
the problem with build orders is if your build order isn't as good as your opponents, which is different on every specific map (oh you missed 1 reclaim wreck here, you didn't take this path but a longer one, you should have sent transport here earlier, etc etc), you will not be starting on even ground and will be at a disadvantage from beginning and for the rest of the game in a constant uphill battle, and next game you will get a different map with different optimal build order that you will fail in a different way for same result
so you have to get past (master) build orders to even start playing the game itself, which are specific to each map, maybe it is more like "openings" in general rather than build orders that I mean, it is not just about what buildings you build but everything else you do in beginning, such as the path your engies take and what/whether they reclaim in between, which definitely isn't the same on every map
all the "pro" players that are saying otherwise are simply too good to notice what they even do in beginning of the game because it is second nature to them and just seems "normal", meanwhile to those that don't it is like their opponent starts better off than them and they have to play catch up instead of the game, all because they didn't memorize what to do in beginning of this specific map
in mapgen (didn't play yet so idk) it seems this is removed because no one knows where mexes or reclaim will be to have a predefined optimal opening for the specific map (because it never existed before) to gain immediate advantage over someone who doesn't, they both have to figure it out on the fly instead of one of them going "ok I should take this path with this engi, don't forget to send a raid to here, no one expects it, this path with this engi, reclaim these wrecks in between..." while other goes "what even is this map, I better expand here, oh wait there were wrecks in other direction, where did those labs come from?..."
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Of course people know the predefined opening for the specific map gen. These are map gen maps. They are not complicated maps with specific reclaim timings anywhere near some premade maps. You can just watch tons of 1800+ or 2000+ map gen games and see people maintain parity in macro because they are aware of the correct moves to macro properly (or too bad to notice the 3000 rated way to macro better). If you can’t keep up in macro you lose the game, that’s what everyone teaches new players and it’s why they first learn how to get to 3 factories without stalling when being trained. If you can’t scale up and keep pace, even 10k mass in selens will kill you. Apply that to map gen and anybody that can’t keep up in macro will lose rating, but it just doesn’t happen.
The BO stuff you're talking about is exactly what is still present in map gen. Pros do things second nature because they have thousands of hours and can just know what a terrain/mex setup will do for the game state. Combine that with knowledge of how games work in low player and high player counts. That means they pick the correct start whether it's all in t1 spam, super early t2 mex, quick drop, quick ACU move, or what. Nobody has 30 15 minute BOs in their brain, they just know the way a map is going to play. Or they know what they need to do a specific play because they’ve done it before on maps whether in term of game state or eco.
The extent of BO that exists in ladder, or frankly just about any teamgame that isn't dual gap or senton (not that these BOs are insanely difficult or essential to know to be relevant even in a 2k+ lobby) is basically that far in term of "set up knowledge." If you account this as BO, then map gen has the equivalent level of BOs. If you don't, then neither map gen nor essentially any ladder game has BOs.
It just comes down to whether you think learning the game's mechanics is just another way of saying BO (where both map types have these BOs, because it's still the same game) or if it doesn't count as BO because it's impulsive moves in the moment (where again, both map styles have it since nobody is tryharding the shit out of ladder). The times where a difference exist is essentially tournaments farming out sandboxed BOs because of a map pool release 2 weeks prior to the event and it having the money to warrant the pain of doing it.
Just ask yourself if anybody is going 1st drone or some other totally worthless opening on map gen. No? That’s already “bo knowledge” and as you get higher in rating, the more false choices you are able to recognize and avoid. I do not define that part of the game as BO.
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My only issue with ladder is long queue times and low player variety. You wait like 20 minutes to play with same dude like 5 times in a row.
Also i dont think that bos matter that much, just that familiarity with map is a big factor. Like i dont think i have ever lost to something i would consider superior bo, every time its me taking poor trades and being slow to scale. That being said its still frustrating to play against superior players. It feels like you can do nothing about your loss, and thats really sad.
I think i also reached the rating where i have to change how i play a lot, and its not really motivating me to play more games. -
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well , i wanted to start playing 1v1. but after this balance patch nerfed hives and soul riper, i will stop playing faf. maybe my brother will play faf, but he likes more Beyond All-Reason.
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Ah, not the hives and soul ripper, the most used in 1v1 units
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My brain is too smooth to keep the openings and general game plan in my head for the 50 or so maps that are rotated in the 1v1 pool.
Combining that with me valuing mastery over actually winning the game, I dont even wanna play when I know I will already start off suboptimal.
Is this pretty dumb? Yes.
Could this be solved by either just caring less or by going through all the maps in like a weekend? Yes.
Am I gonna do that? Probably not.
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@ftxcommando like I said idk about mapgen because I didn't play it yet, it just seems less predefined than static maps that players played thousands of times over and already know exactly what each unit should be doing for first few minutes down to individual reclaim and move orders in queue for each, than when they play a map that never existed before where they follow some more general sequence of actions
the point is that you need to know all this "overhead" startup stuff in ladder just to start the game on even ground as the players that already know it, which is different on every map that is randomly picked even if ever so slightly, or you will be behind your opponent from start which only escalates farther into the match, and like I said, maybe build order is not the term for it but that doesn't make it not exist or irrelevant
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I find team games/TMM far more intimidating than ladder. You have predefined roles you are supposed to do and various map metas you are supposed to know about. If you don't know you are supposed to walk ACU somewhere, or do some other thing as your slot, then you've just upset your team. If you get the air slot you have to execute a 12 minute series of orders mostly correctly or your mirror can make a strat and crush your team. Ladder games are much shorter, generally, and it is only your rating on the line, so it is no big deal to mess up compared to a 40min teamgame with 3 other teammates.
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@cheeseberry said in How come you don't play ladder?:
My brain is too smooth to keep the openings and general game plan in my head for the 50 or so maps that are rotated in the 1v1 pool.
Combining that with me valuing mastery over actually winning the game, I dont even wanna play when I know I will already start off suboptimal.
Is this pretty dumb? Yes.
Could this be solved by either just caring less or by going through all the maps in like a weekend? Yes.
Am I gonna do that? Probably not.
This 100% but even spending a weekend on it is prob not enough to not feel like many mistakes are being made.
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i played a lot 1v1 ladder back in time. its the supreme discipline and i loved it. i stopped it someday for a very banal reason. i was getting slower and slower. the age u know. so it wasnt anymore about strategy it starts to get all about execution.
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my 1v1 rating is 1100 and I am 1300 global.
I stopped playing the 1v1 ladder when I realized that people memorize build orders for each map. and the more you play the more maps open up and yet again u find yourself playing against a meta and getting crushed insanely quickly.
It got to a point where the other person would just Ctrl-k when they lose the expansion or the island mex. most of my games felt like the other player has memorized a meta and is playing it and getting the upper hand since minute 4 and toying with me until minute 30 before crushing me.
1v1 ladder is too taxing on your APM and you kinda must memorize meta (I hate doing meta's or microing reclaim).I now play 4v4 which makes the game less taxing in terms of APM and the meta is not so important since games tend to be less predictable
thank you for your efforts in improving FAF!
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I basically played almost no games for a year, forgetting all but the most generic build orders on ladder, and a quarter of the maps in the pool are ones I have never even seen before, not including map gen, yet I'm easily the top active ladder player at the moment. You only need to have a general understanding of what needs to be accomplished and a couple generic build orders to take as a starting point. Where are all the people with perfect BO's and deep understanding of map meta at? It would be great if ladder was actually that active and competitive.
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i think its the most competetive game mode bcs you have to do everything at once and when you are ranked well and you or your opponent can keep up you have to prioritize some areas and make sacrifices in other. although i think casual try hards as me could learn the most from 1v1 ladder its just too stressful. when i come online i want my faf game exerience which i admit is most times to gun com spam my lane in team games. nothing wrong with 1v1 i think, just not the thing im searching for. 10 - 15 mins of adrenaline rush and it shows me too fast the borders of my inferior gameplay. i want to play not to work. ( which is over all my problem with competitive online gaming) meanwhile i think only 1v1 ranks really matters and maybe really high coustom
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@khaldounn please show me those bo beasts. Like every time i play map i do mostly random stuff in terms of bo, every game is a bit different, and i'm like 1800 so clearly bos arent necessary to play at that level. You really dont need to memorise anything, just be good at scaling and know what moves are good in different situations.
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Map pool is of such variable quality. If people could veto maps or the pool was so big as to not repeat the same 3 or 4 broken maps over and over it'd be such a nicer experience.
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I got bored after playing ladder for a while. When I would queue sometimes I would get lucky and instantly find a match, other times I would be there for hours but I honestly never really liked playing lots of 1v1 just because its just me playing solo. There is also the reason that I keep playing the same people that always do similar things so there is never much variety in gameplay .I find it far more interesting to queue with some people I know or host a custom lobby and get to play something semi-unknown.
I am also unsure why there seems to be so many BO warriors all of a sudden. I have never prepped BO's for ladder or practiced ladder maps, especially since I never play 1v1. But except from playing someone on a map like the ditch where having more experience is extremely valuable compared to having little to none, I have 'probably' never seen a replay I lost and though they had a better BO or played so many games on the map that it was unwinnable for me.
I am sure it is much more impactful to have a BO in lower ratings as you can beat someone who is 'playing better' throughout the game. however, anybody who uses it will gain rating and get to the point where they either face other BO beasts or play people who beat them after their BO has done whatever damage it has unless they are intentionally keeping a low rating which is a whole other problem.
Anyway, I might play ladder again if I gain interest in it against since it is really random for me if I want to play or not.
