Veterancy removal for most units
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@arma473 said in Veterancy removal for most units:
If we only ever asked "what tweaks can we make right now to make the game a little bit more balanced/interesting" without worrying about those other factors, the game would become really bad, really fast. Probably every unit would have toggleable abilities like the Loyalists or like Overcharge to reward APM. We might cap the amount that you're allowed to zoom out because it makes the game more fast-paced. We could drop the unit count, make units bigger so they have flashier graphics, and add global upgrades so that players have to commit more to a particular type of tech. Basically make it more like StarCraft 2 and Supreme Commander 2.
In your opinion it would become bad yes.
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Neither tanks nor frigates impact it significantly. The point is that you have 100s of units all calculating their damage based on the proportion of damage they do when units suddenly die and so on. This doesn't exist anywhere outside of giant air fights.
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@speed2 said in Veterancy removal for most units:
I would still like to see some numbers how much it helps
It was tested before and I asked Sprouto about it at some point once people started throwing around accusations of the vet system being some key reason for FAF being super slow and LOUD being super fast. He told me that it's mainly a factor during the situations I described above. I BELIEVE you could expect simspeed to fall 2 less than with vet on all units during major air fights but I'm not 100% sure.
This correlates with the information IceDreamer told us from his tests where he said vet is extremely inconsequential of a factor in sim speed performance as he was mainly looking at general trends through the game rather than specific spikes at certain periods of gameplay.
Do we want to make the game more inconsistent or remove an entire aspect of the game in order to speed up simspeed for 30-40 second air fights? I'm not convinced by the argument.
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Well it can be easily tested as we have a perf test map that is throwing thousands of ASFs at each other. So I assumed it was tested there
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The vet system brings too much gameplay and fun to the table to just blatantly remove it. Just so the Setons player can have instead of their -10 air fight, a -7 fight for their ~30 seconds. Not a very good argument against the whole vet, because normally there is not a problem with that.
The vet system is not perfect, but at the moment it is good enough to focus on other problems. cough RAS SACUS cough
Could be the air revamped to produce less spam? Debatable.
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On some units I have noticed and used the vetting. early raiding bombers benefit quite a bit from it. It enables them to deal a bit more damage after the enemy got some mobile anti air up . Also labs benefit from it because they usually loose some hp because of bad micro and get some damage due to reclaim. So eventually they should die to engies but the regen allows them to keep raiding until there is a tank in their way. Same goes for early t1 tank engagements.
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We could make veterancy less cancerous if we removed the "current hit points" gain when a unit gains veterancy. The unit's max HP could go up, while the current HP stays the same. That would completely remove the whole "vet vet vet vet vet vet vet" angle to the game, which Thomas correctly describes as an annoying mechanic. ("You try to kill some unit and then it gets some more health and then you get mad.")
OR, the unit's current HP increases proportionally in the same amount as the unit's max HP goes up. So if an ACU has 1400 hp out of 10k max, and gets a vet, and goes up to 11k max hp, it would only gain 140 current hp (up to 1540). So the veterancy bonus itself would not provide an instant "get out of jail free" card.
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@arma473 said in Veterancy removal for most units:
That would completely remove the whole "vet vet vet vet vet vet vet" angle to the game
As for me that the only reason to keep vet on EXP and ACU
It brings emotions -
How about someone makes a mod that removes vet and i run tests on sim speed impact. I would create huge naval battles, huge t1 spam fights and so on and see how it impacts things and prove with videos.
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Vet is a silly mechanic. I thought originally it only added regen, not health.
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I like vet and I wouldn't mind to see it even improved. To add some extra damage on the weapons like in vanilla.
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@advena said in Veterancy removal for most units:
Remove veterancy for all units but
- experimentals
- ACU
As compensation buff hitpoints:
- Striker by 1 hp
- All T2 units by 10-20%
- All T3 units by 20-30%
Reason:
Sim speed (notably in ASF battles)it just will broke the game
veterancy is the reward for good units usage and micro
and all strategies with seraf regen aura will be dead from that changeand for what? to fix some lags in asf battles? which exist only in eco-global games?
madnessit's better to buff vet instead of deleting it, this will bring more fun and skill-dependency to the game
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@FunkOff said in Veterancy removal for most units:
I agree that veterency is rarely relevant outside acus and xps.
Like labs, that can get wet and stay alive and raid longer, like t3 bots that can do the same, like destros, or b-ships, or t1 or t3 bomber them you have only one. Really not relevant for you?
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@speed2 yes, improving vet would be cool, but how to do so in a way that does not slow the game even more. If there were no lag concerns I'd suggest having rank 4 give some AOE buff to like accuracy or weapon range or rate of fire to similar units. And rank 5 be an AOE passive vet gain, or some other thing that maybe makes you want to bring them home. Idk, just sounding here.
And IMO the air game needs to be revamped in general. Idk what, but something needs to clear the skies and make the meta more than "Get a shit ton of them, then go at it!" Which is lag city. But lanchesters law is the law, so making something that changes that up would be an ordeal.
You must deceive the enemy, sometimes your allies, but you must always deceive yourself!
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Well the heaviest part is mass distribution and we have that already. Changing one value on a weapon is cheap. Also the code is already there... Since it worked in the vanilla. The code that handles it stayed, just the values what to change it to were removed, so it does nothing.
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@KaletheQuick said in Veterancy removal for most units:
@speed2 yes, improving vet would be cool, but how to do so in a way that does not slow the game even more. If there were no lag concerns I'd suggest having rank 4 give some AOE buff to like accuracy or weapon range or rate of fire to similar units. And rank 5 be an AOE passive vet gain, or some other thing that maybe makes you want to bring them home. Idk, just sounding here.
And IMO the air game needs to be revamped in general. Idk what, but something needs to clear the skies and make the meta more than "Get a shit ton of them, then go at it!" Which is lag city. But lanchesters law is the law, so making something that changes that up would be an ordeal.
t4 asf, costs x5, have x3 asf dps and x3 hp and x2 speed and aoe dmg, and can be upgraded to so there is diminishing returns on building lots of them ?)
TLDR: mini-czars without land dmg. -
I think we should remove vet for all land t1 units, bar labs, and for those units give them an increased based regen of 2hps. For extra sim speed.
I think ASF and Inties benefit from vet, as it means you get a slight advantage for winning and repair your units.
There are a number of buildings that don't benefit at all from it such as Nukes.
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Those units you mentioned dont really slow down the sim speed, you would get almost no benefit from it.
