Improvement of Leaderboards

19

I'd say it is quite important for the community to have good looking leaderboards, but they are quite lacking now imo. It's very basic/bland and doesn't give enough information at all. It's quite obvious when you compare it to something like the aoe2 leaderboards:

alt text
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By far the most important one to add is the current rating. It is absolutely crucial to properly understand the players strenght. Most other categories are not as crucial but still very nice to have just to liven it up and give some interesting data.

The layout of the black row > grey row > black row is also a must imo. Especially if there is more information it improves readability a lot and it's so standard i'm surprised it isn't in the client. It should also be in the Coop rankings and custom games table tab. Just noticed it already exists in the live replays tab.

Currently you can see a players information by rightclicking > show user info, but left clicking does nothing. A bit weird to me but maybe i'm nitpicking.

Also speaking off the player graph:
alt text
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You can see very vaguely see some indications on the faf graph but if you compare it to the aoe2 graph the constrast is lacking.

Also maybe an idea to mix the different rating graphs? Maybe it's personal preference but i feel like it looks a lot nicer. Most chess sites do it this way as well.

Also a little bug: You can drag away the information on the leaderboards without being able to get it back: alt text

I know i was a bit blunt but i just think these would be some nice improvements.

Kisses from the big man

3

Well I can’t code on the client. However, if the client devs are up to it, I’d happily could make a leaderboard with whatever design and parameters you want in the website (which can be imported into the client, just like the client newshub currently is just a page in the website)

You can also take a look at the current leaderboard on the new website. https://test.faforever.com/leaderboards

It is intended to use a graph and have other features after the website fully releases (since I’m currently working on the clans and login part)

FAF Website Developer
Come check the new of the FAF website!
https://www.test.faforever.com/

1

does that include the global leaderboards as well?
not entirely sure why it got hidden/deleted but could definietly be useful tbh

asking since i saw only the pulls from matchmakers

queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko

5

i have asked for Global to be re-added to the leaderboard on the website 🙂

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock

0

Including rating in the league leaderboards would defeat the purpose of the league system. One mayor advantage is that it abstracts away the intricacies of trueskill rating. People gaining seemingly random amounts of points after a game, new players looking like they have an established rating, yada, yada, yada. On top of that the league leaderboard is not necessarily sorted by rating, making it even more confusing if we displayed the rating there.
Having a rating leaderboard somewhere on the website is a different story, but in the client it doesn't fit.
Global was given no league, because the rating is too unreliable. I can understand the desire to look up people's global rating, but implying a ranking in skill by putting them in a leaderboard in descending order feels off for me.

Not sure how useful win percentage is, the win streak and last game played info seems pretty nice

2

I support his idea. The current leaderboard is awkward and doesn't give a picture of all the players in the FAF. There are many players who are outstanding in the game, but they are not on the leaderboard - it's wrong. Many newcomers will want to watch the replays of these players to learn how to play, but with the current leaderboard their search is limited to a few active players. Yes, they can still find them by nickname, but what if a player has changed their nickname or hasn't been online in a while? Don't most players who aren't on the leaderboard deserve to be seen?

1

@blackyps Well I know you really like the league over rating, which I agree with you, for example, its easier for new players to understand that a Bronze V player and a Bronze I are both new/low skill players rather than seeing a 0 rated player and a 500 rated. However, I do see how established FAF players will want to see rating numbers since thats what they are accustomed to.

Why not have both? The leaderboards could by default show the league tier but have the option to show rating instead. This way both new and old players get a happy experience.

FAF Website Developer
Come check the new of the FAF website!
https://www.test.faforever.com/

1

@Rowey the changes have been pushed, the global leaderboards will be re-instanted to the test server once you re-build it

FAF Website Developer
Come check the new of the FAF website!
https://www.test.faforever.com/

3

@blackyps said in Improvement of Leaderboards:

Including rating in the league leaderboards would defeat the purpose of the league system. One mayor advantage is that it abstracts away the intricacies of trueskill rating. People gaining seemingly random amounts of points after a game, new players looking like they have an established rating, yada, yada, yada. On top of that the league leaderboard is not necessarily sorted by rating, making it even more confusing if we displayed the rating there.
Having a rating leaderboard somewhere on the website is a different story, but in the client it doesn't fit.
Global was given no league, because the rating is too unreliable. I can understand the desire to look up people's global rating, but implying a ranking in skill by putting them in a leaderboard in descending order feels off for me.

Not sure how useful win percentage is, the win streak and last game played info seems pretty nice

Given the history of rating in faf i don't think you can just replace rating with the league score and make it intuitive. If someone tells me he's 1600 i can instantly (roughly) understand how good that player is, but if someone tells me he's Gold or diamond i have no clue what i could expect from him.

This is in addition of still seeing rating ingame when you're playing but not able to look it up outside from the game.

I also dont see why you can't have both the league rank and rating. A good example of this is sc2, which has both a league system and rating implemented. I don't think it would be confusing. Not more than the current leaderboards tab which shows you your score but as someone new you have no idea what it entails and how its calculated.

0

The Original Aim that i spoke to @Femboy with was to have on the standard leaderboard to display what their current League Positioning is. At the moment the league system is their but doesn't provide any motivation to bother climbing it which I'm in the process of figuring out as the promo team to see what we can do to improve this.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock

2

@rowey Just add MVP players of each season to news. Not just top of a season, but best winrate / fastest games / longest games / badass gameplay

0

This could work

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock

3

Just to add a datapoint, League of Legends (one of the biggest games in the world) which has a league system very similar to ours has a leaderboard that looks like this:

9969c8e4-0507-41fc-8a25-7534508b8c13-grafik.png

So it pretty much looks the same as ours, it just additionally has a column for the recent rank changes. I think the point is to intentionally give lacking information about the skill of a player, because many people just don't understand it and/or because it leads to players focusing on rating.
LoL also showed rating when it was a new game, but they switched to the league system pretty fast (after like 3 years or so). Players now play to go up divisions/tiers and not rating. The system also rewards (avatars, other "cool" profile UI stuff, in-game skins) players for reaching certain goals, like being at least Gold at the end of a season, and that becomes motivation for people to play.

We don't have any rewards so that part of the motivation is gone. We also don't have rank up games like LoL has (BO3 for division, BO5 for leagues).

There's more to it, like a different system for very high level players and so on, but I think the post is already long.

My main point is:
There's not really anything wrong with our current leaderboards, as it's the same as LoL, the whole thing is more about the philosophy behind the leaderboard. The problem is that we currently have something that doesn't give you good information, but also doesn't have all the intricacies of the LoL system that makes people want to play more and rank up divsions and tiers and feel good about that.
Our system is still unfinished: in-game you still see rating, and as far as I know the cool designs Petric made are still not used anywhere.

Personally I vastly prefer getting meaningful information than the pampering the LoL system does; I think it's also way less effort for our devs to implement.

1

League vs Rating is entirely a top-down question. Problem is that the leagues are implemented half-ass because pushing it through entirely and hiding rating made everybody cry so it’s currently useless because no culture exists around league divisions nor is there any reason for one to currently form. So you have the situation of people wanting to revert back to using rating as a leaderboard and essentially making divisions a pointless addition.

3

Then we just push through the league system across the board, and say goodbye to showing ratings. If that is the better system for the long term then I'll be happy to implement it in the game, and I'll be happy to take all the flak that emerges from it.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

0

@jip How would that look for global games? Would there be a separate global league or would it show highest mm league?

0

Thread locked for upvote farming.

profile picture credits to petric

2

I just re-added the global leaderboards https://www.test.faforever.com/leaderboards

FAF Website Developer
Come check the new of the FAF website!
https://www.test.faforever.com/

0

good job

queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko

0
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