The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (The Ambassador & Blackbird)

Femboy

@spikeynoob only going to give me cancer when there are 1000 blips in the map and idk if they are strats, spy planes or enemy ASF cloud. Yaaaayy fun game design! Love having my interface become a shit show

FtXCommando

Javi showcasing what would happen if someone attempted to suggest something as crazy and OP as Cybran getting stealth ASF, strat, and spy plane.

Jip

@javi I think you're being a bit drastic. You don't have to respond. You don't have to read it. And nothing has to get changed. Stryker is just sharing his thoughts.

I'd like to add one detail with regards to adding jamming: it means that the first volley of anti air will likely always miss unless you already have them in vision range. Especially with the automatic jamming reset happening on FAF Develop.

maudlin27

I'm not seeing the problem. You focus on special abilities and seem to conclude Aeon strat is better than UEF. However, Aeon strat can be dodged by an ACU consistently. A UEF strat is much harder (e.g. virtually impossible for an AI to dodge, and difficult for a human to) due to its slightly better aoe. I'd much rather have the better aoe than the stun effect.

So on the strat comparison, yes ambassador is worse than Cybran strat, but I don't see it as being the worst strat available (although I preferred it when it had the 2nd best aoe).

You also dont say what the problem is with the spy plane.

I.e. you seem to be saying the problem is that 'UEF T3 air isn't as strong as Cybran T3 air', but there are 4 factions in the game not 2, so we shouldn't be trying to balance everything by comparing a faction to the best one for that particular unit.

UEF also gets T3 gunship (Seraphim doesnt), and T3 transport (which no other faction gets).

UEF's main deficiency on the air is when you get to the experimental stage, because it has no air experimental. However it gets the novax which is a unique alternative to air that no other faction gets. In some scenarios it's better, others its worse.

Turinturambar

@comradestryker said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

Cybran is highly favored for this position

cyb needs some strenght in air, due to their weaknesses in T2 and T3 land.

Unknow

I understand the point on the first 2 threads on acu upgrades but the last 2 threads are just sad memes arguing to have the best shit and killing balance /

Nex

Adding Jamming to more UEF units would be nice to increase faction diversity, but the stats should be adjusted, because just adding jamming would make those units kinda op. All Cybran units have less hp for a reason and the cybran strat even deals 250 damage less than the others (UEF strat also deals 100 damage more than others)

veteranashe

Jamming on the strat would mean you can see a strat coming without knowing what the radar is, I don't think this is a good idea at all and would be be very disappointed if this would make it in.

Irc the uef strat is armed, weakly.

Jamming on the spy plane might work and be funny, but it still would get shot down the same.

TheVVheelboy

@veteranashe said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

Irc the uef strat is armed, weakly.

Jamming on the spy plane might work and be funny, but it still would get shot down the same.

It will still get shot down but most likely it will manage to get deeper into enemy territory due to the first volley of sam missiles missing, as they were targeting the blip. So I wouldn't really mind it getting jamming for the diversity quota.

As for the strat? Imo give it better DPS(preferably by giving it higher rof, B17 machine guns go Brrrrrrr) and a little bit higher AA range so that it can feel more like flying fortress when going up against t1 and t2 air. Kinda playing into the "UEF BULKY AND STRONG" meme. Which imo wouldn't make the strat too overbearing but would still make it more diverse compared to other strats.

FtXCommando

@nex said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

Adding Jamming to more UEF units would be nice to increase faction diversity, but the stats should be adjusted, because just adding jamming would make those units kinda op. All Cybran units have less hp for a reason and the cybran strat even deals 250 damage less than the others (UEF strat also deals 100 damage more than others)

Cyb strat does less damage because it has the most aoe, stealth has no functional impact on cyb air stats beyond making air units cost e to run the ability.

The difference in asf hp is also irrelevant since asf do not shoot continuously and the hp differences don’t make any asf take additional volleys to die. ASF shoot in spurts of 200 or 400 damage depending on the faction and all ASF are between 1700 and 1800 hp.

Zeldafanboy

Not all factions have to be equally strong in all areas. They just have to be equally strong overall. Now, with air units there is more leeway for this kind of argument because the unit rosters are more similar than naval or land, and in many cases the units are roughly identical (T1 interceptors, T1 bombers, ASF). Jamming would make strat bombers much better against SAMs which is one of their important counters. Since jamming is going to be buffed to reapply after you lose vision, you have to take that into account. Currently jamming sucks so I wouldn’t mind it but since it’s going to be buffed applying it to a strategic bomber, one of the most effective units in the game to rush, is dicey.

For the spy plane it would be ok. Maybe also the Broadsword. Probably not the ASF though

FtXCommando

Idk why you guys are acting like jamming is going to brainblast the game and destroy the balance. It’s just as useful as stealth in some situations and worse in others.

If you gave ASF jamming you would have to do proper play with spyplanes along with your asf group which decent players already do so you don’t miss the first turn volley. With stealth, if you don’t have spy planes you could fly into invisible ASF and your ASF fail to shoot their first volley. Conclusion: same impact.

With stealth, you can’t accurately count enemy ASF. With jamming, you can’t accurately count enemy ASF. Conclusion: same impact.

With stealth strats, you can sneak and get suicide drops far away from enemy air that can respond. With jamming, you can tank more sams outside of omni radius (aka you can’t suicide on anything game winning most of the time). Conclusion: varying but similar utility.

Jamming on spy planes is the same deal, you might be able to get through a sam location and keep scouting. Meanwhile Cybran spy planes are harder to actively intercept. Conclusion: varying but similar utility.

And omni counters both. Conclusion: same impact.

Literally incoherent for anyone here to say jamming is OP and then not actively demand Cybran lose their whole stealthed t3 stage. Only dude with a coherent point is turin saying Cybran gets more t3 air tools because of a weaker land stage but that just sounds like post hoc explanation because it isn’t like stealth ASF bring comfort to a worse land situation.

The real reason is that nobody has any idea how to give Sera and Aeon anything cool to use so UEF won’t get their counterintel unit flavor and Cybran only has it due to inheriting it from GPG era.

FtXCommando

@zeldafanboy said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

Maybe also the Broadsword. Probably not the ASF though

It already has jamming. Really great tell on how OP that jamming must be!

Nex

@ftxcommando I would never say jamming was op or even particularly strong, but it's not useless either and neither is stealth.
My point was that assuming current balance is fine, simply adding jamming would make those units stronger. So to preserve balance you would need to lower other stats a little.

Adding jamming to ASF is probably a bad idea as jamming blips are sim objects (as they can be targeted). So making each ASF into 5 units might slow down the sim a bit much.

FtXCommando

Under what rationale do you need to lower stats when Cybran t3 air would maintain faction parity without stealth?

Zeldafanboy

@ftxcommando

You keep saying that jamming is always equal or worse to stealth in most scenarios— I completely agree. If you gave UEF T3 air counter intel parity with Cybran it would be roughly as good as Cybran air. Right now it’s noticeably not as good.

My whole point was that if UEF T3 air was as good as Cybran it would make UEF unbalanced. It already has the best T3 naval (Neptunes are anti meta because they are good against frig spam) and the best T3 land that synergistically fills in the weakness of its siege T4 land unit. The game balance is supposed to be holistic, every faction isn’t supposed to be equally powerful in every arena at every tech level…

Furthermore, I’m saying all this with the context of Jip saying jamming will be buffed soon. Jamming as is is a different beast entirely because it gets owned the first time vision goes over it.

Brannou

Good player might not be that affected y jamming but for a mid/low player that can be very impactfult. I remember a game where i didn't engaged into uef frig cause i saw over 10 of them while in reality he had like 2/3.

@javi said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

Lets buff Seraphim t3 air too because I dont have t3 gunship or t3 transport so I need my ASF to have 1k more health okay?

Dude this logic of "X faction has good unit, so UEF should have an equally good unit" is just bad game design. If you want to start throwing buffs everywhere cuz some faction has a speciality, then I want my Seraphim t2 shield okay? I need to protect my chickens from OC and its unfair Sera lacks shield when UEF and Aeon have t2 shield...

Straight up some clowntown idea to think UEF strat AND spyplane should have jamming. Then Aeon needs shielded ASF because Aeons uses alot of shielded units and Sera needs like t3.5 ASF because they tend to have really pricey but good units. Remember Seraphim and Aeon exist too when you see the game in UEF/Cybran lenses only.

I'm tingling to shitpost about sera buff, like giving them Ras, T3 gunship and buff othuum so it become more like a percy but in better

veteranashe

Good players will see the jamming on radar so the first strat rush will be seen coming from long away, hurting the strat. It's possible you could mess with people by sending a spy plane with jamming.

ComradeStryker

@jip

I'd like to add one detail with regards to adding jamming: it means that the first volley of anti air will likely always miss unless you already have them in vision range. Especially with the automatic jamming reset happening on FAF Develop.

I tested this, and yes, the first volley misses however, once the Strat is in vision, it always be active on radar. The next time it comes into range of a SAM or any AA, the defenses will focus the Strat rather than the false radar signatures.

One thing I did notice is that the missiles fired from a SAM after they are shot aiming for the first radar signature - they retarget the strat as the radar signature no longer exists. So, the first volley is 50-50. It could miss or it could also hit the Strat.

You were working on this, no? Something to do with Missile tracking and no damage being dealt to fast-moving units?

I get the feeling that project might directly correlate with this change.

Thanks for the comment!

~ Stryker

ComradeStryker

@maudlin27

I'm not seeing the problem. You focus on special abilities and seem to conclude Aeon strat is better than UEF. However, Aeon strat can be dodged by an ACU consistently. A UEF strat is much harder (e.g. virtually impossible for an AI to dodge, and difficult for a human to) due to its slightly better aoe. I'd much rather have the better aoe than the stun effect.

So on the strat comparison, yes ambassador is worse than Cybran strat, but I don't see it as being the worst strat available (although I preferred it when it had the 2nd best aoe).

I'm just trying to expand on the Faction abilities, mainly. Also, never said that the Aeon Strat was better - It used to be, and honestly, I preferred the previous strat changes, too. (Larger AoE and less damage)

The issue I see is that UEF is usually the least picked when it comes to Air Roles.
As how you mention later below - it doesn't have quite the "Air Force" needed as other factions.

To be honest, I was trying to copy what the game "Rainbow Six: Siege" does.
To keep things short and on-topic, that game has seasonal changes where Operators are buffed and/or nerfed based on how often they are picked in matches. If an operator is picked too often, a small nerf may be presented to alter the stats to make it fair for other operators.

To me, again, I almost never see UEF in air roles - this isn't noticeable in 1v1's 2v2, or smaller games. This is mainly the issue in larger games when players have roles.

You also dont say what the problem is with the spy plane.

To be fair, this could be taken either way. Seems to me that for you - there is no issue, but to me, the fact that UEF is least picked is detrimental - we want to see more races on every slot, no? Cybran's Stealth just greatly overshadows every other faction.

I.e. you seem to be saying the problem is that 'UEF T3 air isn't as strong as Cybran T3 air',

It isn't! In what sense do you think Stealth is balanced? xD
I'm not trying to make it as strong, or stronger than Cybran; In my opinion, Stealth is heavily unbalanced and overpowered, but I don't make the rules; I'm trying to offer suggestions on what would help other factions be able to compete with Stealth. Specifically for UEF on this post.

but there are 4 factions in the game not 2, so we shouldn't be trying to balance everything by comparing a faction to the best one for that particular unit.

Of course there are 4 other factions - which is why I encourage players to test out the changes with the mod Spikey made. This way, I can get more feedback from a wider audience. I've done my own testing with many players and I've honestly found no issues with these planes getting jamming. Large maps, small maps, large team games, smaller games, etc. You name it, I've most likely tested it.
Plus, the ability is togglable, so there's that too.

UEF also gets T3 gunship (Seraphim doesnt), and T3 transport (which no other faction gets).

They do, but I guess that's by design. Though I can't see why not it can't be added in - Wasn't mobile T3 AA added in by the FAF community?

UEF's main deficiency on the air is when you get to the experimental stage, because it has no air experimental. However it gets the novax which is a unique alternative to air that no other faction gets. In some scenarios it's better, others its worse.

The Satellite... such a meme.

Thanks for the feedback,
~ Stryker