Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1

While they derail with 1000 words, let us remember FAF toxicity is so high it drove out a councilor from council chat.

@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:

The council is trying to clarify the officialness of the Russian discord. The answer at the moment is kinda/sorta/probably, but its still in progress.

But FAF-RU is official FAF server? And been for a long time considering it's advertised on the FAF discord.
And a BIG IMPORTANT THING is that everything that is advertised on FAF discord is recognised officially as part of FAF and have people from FAF overseeing them so that the guildelines of the main one are followed. Which funnily enough is one of the reasons why mirddes never got his aussie discord allowed to be advertised here as he wasn't willing to follow official FAF server guidelines.

So no, don't try to divert the attention to FAF-RU not being official when it clearly is and you knew it all too well.

Sheeo was driven out of the council chat because:

A) He says his role is obsolete and so he has no reason to be there, Admin Councillor = President of the Board for all intended purposes.

B) There were rules made for a code of conduct in the Council chat. It said Sheeo could remove anyone that breaks the rules. These rules included things like making disparaging remarks and lying. Sheeo did both and I don't mind having the conversation about how he did both.

So I said I would accept the code so long as we have a way to also apply it to Sheeo. But since Sheeo said he was leaving the Council chambers it was fine. Then he said I crossed the "intentionally trolling" part of the code as far as he was concerned by he didn't take action and isntead just left.

@randomwheelchair Official from what point of view? At what level is the official one. Have access to the discord platform news bot? Or have direct access to a single chat? Or be able to stand in rows of links to various discord servers? Isn't this achievable without an "official" rank

Well for one you are allowed to use the Dostya bot. You advertise yourself as the Official Russian Discord. There have been discussions in the past about having your Discord be considered the Official Russian Discord with said Discord's administration in the past.

And besides all of this, if this was in a legal gray area, literally why would this not be addressed PRIOR to an advertisement post. Why is it my responsibility to go and explore whether the game another Councillor is working on is getting posted in gray-area Discords rather than him just asking Council or even just Giebmasse about the action? Isn't the whole point of this post that people can't act like grown ups? So why am I the elementary school teacher having to tell kids to read the rules on the poster on the wall?

What could have just been a discussion about whether "to do" or "not do" now has to be a discussion involving penalties up to and including "removing councillor."

The Russian discord is considered official because:
It is advertised in the FAF discord
It recognises FAF moderation
It carries FAF branding

There is no current discussion about the status of the discord within the council at the moment. The last time this was discussed was on roughly May 12th. The only thing that was discussed today was asking nine2 why he chose to advertise Company of Heroes 2 on the newshub.

The holy ftx/biass alliance is here.

@ftxcommando another councilor? Is apofenas councilor?

Why do you think it's ok to call people derogatory names like petulant in council chat biass? It's meant to be a workplace for serious conversations about FAF.

@eternal said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:

@ftxcommando another councilor? Is apofenas councilor?

No, nine.

I do not think Apofenas did any action here that requires anything more than just being informed to watch out for people with an ulterior financial reason to see a game succeed go and try to advertise their game on FAF mediums.

I find the attitude of moral superiority some people have on FAF is pretty toxic in itself. There is no objectively right or wrong way to communicate and act. FtX and Biass seem to get more done than most people, so maybe their way of acting is actually superior. Playing god and saying these people's way of acting is wrong because you said so seems worse to me than the people who act "toxic" sometimes.

As far as player retention goes you seem to ignore that FAF player retention numbers are good compared to other games. Every game will lose most of its new players, that isn't a good excuse to not try and find new players. What percentage of player retention do you aim to achieve before beginning external promotions? Assuming people mainly leave due to toxicity also seems like a big leap. You made a thread on the forums, which only active community members read, and a few of them said they would have quit due to toxicity. They didn't quit due to toxicity though, because they are still here and participating in the community. Seems like survivor bias to me.

Okay: I have my bias, I have a strong working relationship with most council members (Nine, Ftx, Biass, and lesser extent Keyser and Petric). And several former ones (Jagged and Morax).

I am for reference:
A newbie on faf community, I only been here for just over one year. I only been a major member of the community of tje community for about 9 months.

Here are my thoughts on toxicity?
Hogwash.

Or well let me elaborate, can Ftx (and Biass or other senior members of the community) be abrasive (and maybe Jerkwads). I see FAF toxicity reference, and most the time is same folks. Many whom make claims without strong backing or known never do wells.

Personally I have been turned off from engagement with people with lack of a better term laissez flair handling of issues. But if look into Discord, Ftx and I did not START on the best relationship. Mainly I said something then memes.

But, now Ftx and I have a very strong working relationship. I often talk to balance folks about balance despite being a, 350 ladder. And contrary to claims they don’t say “Screw off”.

Instead they listen and discuss the issues and situations. And often give me advice. Now I won’t claim SCTA is l33t balanced but its definetely for most part a fair mod. (Well some exceptions, see the Tactical Nukes, which need cost adjustment I’ve been lazy).

But that not why I posted:
Mirddes is brought up as being called out by Biass as example of toxicity.

My work, and work of those whom I worked with, was being slandered. Not just slandered but outright lied about. He (Mirddes) done this multiple times, and repeatedly. And if we cannot call out such a blatant act of slandering or libel as what is?

Call the person who isn’t just trying to blacken my or another faf contributer name, and name of my project, then drag it through mud as EXACTLY what it is. How can we respond to toxicity?

I don’t like burning bridges, so I tend to be diplomatic. Where needed. Biass calling out Mirddes there is EXACTLY what he should do.

Frankly I should have as well. And if it was Exotic and Nomads being frankly badmouthed and frankly lied about constantly and that same person, going and claiming its “there project” or “their personally the cause”. Folks wouldn’t stand for it. You can bet people would take up arms.

Infact that thread made me overjoyed because Biass and others had done exactly that. So where the toxicity?

@nine2 what is the reason you waited untill now (19 hours before the discussion priod ends) to make this post? The Election started 24 days ago, there were Pages of discussion, the topix of toxidity was discussed there aswell. I am sure to ensure an indepth disccusion of the issues you brought up, it would have been in the best interest of the debate to bring them up as early as possible.
I fear as long as you fail to present a good reason it will be hard believing that this entire discussion is supposed to be a productive contribution to the PC discussion. (if your answer is, that you didnt manage to make the post in time, then please exlain why you did not consider making the this post after the election. I am sure that it could serve the purpose of discussing the topic of toxidity aswell)

Because from my perspecitive you chose the worst time possible to achieve a productive discussion.

@ftxcommando said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:

Sheeo was driven out of the council chat because:

A) He says his role is obsolete and so he has no reason to be there, Admin Councillor = President of the Board for all intended purposes.

B) There were rules made for a code of conduct in the Council chat. It said Sheeo could remove anyone that breaks the rules. These rules included things like making disparaging remarks and lying. Sheeo did both and I don't mind having the conversation about how he did both.

So I said I would accept the code so long as we have a way to also apply it to Sheeo. But since Sheeo said he was leaving the Council chambers it was fine. Then he said I crossed the "intentionally trolling" part of the code as far as he was concerned by he didn't take action and isntead just left.

This is so incredibly misleading. Let's get the facts straight here.

There's no point in the admin councillor position any more indeed; that doesn't mean the board shouldn't have representation or be present in the council chat. But you have, almost single-handedly, made that impossible with your constant toxicity throughout the year.

I introduced those rules more or less only because of your behavior. What you're doing right now is very much the same; misrepresenting facts and lying to make your perspective seem better; and constantly disparaging and attacking others personally.

The very moment you were added back in the council chat you immediately continued your behavior and broke the rules. Instead of enforcing them unilaterally I left it up to the rest of the councillors.

And then the councilors sat on their hands because they are non confrontational reasonable people. No one stands up and fixes the issue. Which is why we are here today.

@turinturambar Yeah the timing is suspect.

Also as much as toxicity annoys me, it’s present in every gaming community that has ever existed of any remotely substantial size. FAF actually feels like it’s a bit lighter on toxicity than other communities I’ve seen, though maybe I’m biased because I got dragged into LoL for a bit by some friends. Now that is cancer.

I also do agree with Thomas - I highly doubt FTX’s periodic bouts of toxicity has much if any relevancy when it comes to player retention for newbs. The game’s steep learning curve and the lack of friendliness to newbs getting games and just getting kicked from lobbies are a much bigger issue for newbs, both of which there are initiatives to address.

Granted I’m not saying this to defend toxicity from people in FAF leadership, if you’re going to be a leader in anything then you should be better than that.

I also do agree with Thomas - I highly doubt FTX’s periodic bouts of toxicity has much if any relevancy when it comes to player retention for newbs. The game’s steep learning curve and the lack of friendliness to newbs getting games and just getting kicked from lobbies are a much bigger issue for newbs, both of which there are initiatives to address.

I'm inclined to agree with this; I don't think players are scared off from playing the game because of toxicity.

The people who go on to contribute, and spend their time discussing with others, making content, writing code etc.; they are driven away. It's a lot to task of people to voluntarily help out with a project; it's an even taller order to expect them to keep on going while they're being treated like shit for helping out.

Some of the best people we've had around in this community left because of toxicity in the past.

To be frank this is just unacceptable way of managing an organization.

Few members of the council can't stand eachother, ok. So instead of resolving the conflict internally and finding a way to work together, you (and i mean all councillors ...) choose to make this some kind of public showdown, and no less that at the time of the PC election ...

What are we suppose to do as players ??? Judge this childish conflict and say who's wrong who's right ?? Are we supposed to vote for team 1 or team 2 depending on who throws the more text and revelations ?
The common player like me has NO IDEA of what your little conflict are, and we don't care, are we supposed to catch up on years of drama to vote appropriatly ??

Seriously, i want to vote for some concrete stuff like how we will manage tourneys and ladder. This bullcrap is just turning this election into a joke, it's annoying to witness, and completly uniteresting ... And it's taking so much space that i can't find the will to read the PC election thread anymore, even though i'm interested into what the candidates are offering for the game.

Can't you just collectively get your shit together and act like adults ? Or are you going to feed us hundreds more pages of pointless talk ?

@auricocorico said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:

What are we suppose to do as players ??? Judge this childish conflict and say who's wrong who's right ?? Are we supposed to vote for team 1 or team 2 depending on who throws the more text and revelations ?
The common player like me has NO IDEA of what your little conflict are, and we don't care, are we supposed to catch up on years of drama to vote appropriatly ??

Seriously, i want to vote for some concrete stuff like how we will manage tourneys and ladder. This bullcrap is just turning this election into a joke, it's annoying to witness, and completly uniteresting ... And it's taking so much space that i can't find the will to read the PC election thread anymore, even though i'm interested into what the candidates are offering for the game.

100%. It has turned into a circus and it’s annoying. Utterly impossible for people not already privy to all of this information and the context behind it to make an informed decision. This is just pointless politicking from current FAF leadership and those trying to enter it.

@auricocorico said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:

To be frank this is just unacceptable way of managing an organization.

Few members of the council can't stand eachother, ok. So instead of resolving the conflict internally and finding a way to work together, you (and i mean all councillors ...) choose to make this some kind of public showdown, and no less that at the time of the PC election ...

What are we suppose to do as players ??? Judge this childish conflict and say who's wrong who's right ?? Are we supposed to vote for team 1 or team 2 depending on who throws the more text and revelations ?
The common player like me has NO IDEA of what your little conflict are, and we don't care, are we supposed to catch up on years of drama to vote appropriatly ??

Seriously, i want to vote for some concrete stuff like how we will manage tourneys and ladder. This bullcrap is just turning this election into a joke, it's annoying to witness, and completly uniteresting ... And it's taking so much space that i can't find the will to read the PC election thread anymore, even though i'm interested into what the candidates are offering for the game.

Outside of the paradise-hotel level of dramatic title, the notion of asking for non-toxic behavior from the community and especially core contributors should be welcome.

Can't you just collectively get your shit together and act like adults ? Or are you going to feed us hundreds more pages of pointless talk ?

This whole thing is the first point of order on the agenda for the next association board meeting.