Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
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What's with the constant fear of creating something new that's good? You see the current issue with uef shield is that it's too expensive for the hp so the solution is to make it cheaper but also make it shittier in survivability again? It's supposed to be some mongoose upgrade when half the boon of mongoose is the speed which you now can't use because they are tethered to an ACU that has a more expensive but shittier survival upgrade in every way than Aeon?
If the point is testing things out in beta why don't you err on the side of making things good enough to actually break the meta inertia and use the new toy rather than it being too bad aside from 1 in 3400 game scenarios but when that scenario actually arises you forgot the upgrade exists to actually test it out.
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The balance team doesn’t want the inevitable blowback when people start dying and losing rating to the new good thing in the days/weeks before people discover counterplays. It just causes more stress and work for them with regards to keeping FAF humming along and growing. People can drop games over stuff like that. Nobody playing now is going to drop the game because it’s still mostly like it was X years ago. That’s kind of the appeal.
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https://patchnotes.faforever.com/fafbeta.html I've updated the beta Patchnotes page for what is live on FAFBeta
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@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
What's with the constant fear of creating something new that's good? You see the current issue with uef shield is that it's too expensive for the hp so the solution is to make it cheaper but also make it shittier in survivability again? It's supposed to be some mongoose upgrade when half the boon of mongoose is the speed which you now can't use because they are tethered to an ACU that has a more expensive but shittier survival upgrade in every way than Aeon?
If the point is testing things out in beta why don't you err on the side of making things good enough to actually break the meta inertia and use the new toy rather than it being too bad aside from 1 in 3400 game scenarios but when that scenario actually arises you forgot the upgrade exists to actually test it out.
Meet cybran nano. To this day there are enough people (Also 2k+ players) that think it's still as OP as the first iteration and those people are still complaining about it even though it has been nerfed massively compared to how strong it used to be.
Aside from that i honestly don't know how you came to this conclusion. You're cherry picking the mass and hp changes the uef shield, even though the biggest changes are focussed on the e cost, regen and recharge time
This makes it have a faster recharge time than first aeon shield, which is widely considered to have an insanely good recharge time.We don't want to underbuff units yes, but obviously we don't want to overbuff them either and try to get their stats as accurately as possible from the get go. Aside from that i do intend to rather overbuff than underbuff units so it's easier to get data (especially since it's beta), but as you yourself know we have 0 data on the current shield which means it's harder to estimate how it will behave in a game.
I think this is still a big buff compared to the current UEF bubble shield. Will it be enough of a buff since it's bad atm? who knows. Sadly due to a lack of github enthusiasts this suggested bubble change that was decided on the 1st of october isn't in beta yet so we haven't been able to test it to see whether it needs further adjustments or not.
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@TheWheelie I've made the changes, I am just awating Tagada to Approve
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Will do so when I come back home
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Im curious why didnt uef bubble shield just carbon copy the personal sheild except the bubble part?
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@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Meet cybran nano. To this day there are enough people (Also 2k+ players) that think it's still as OP as the first iteration and those people are still complaining about it even though it has been nerfed massively compared to how strong it used to be.
Smh just showcases everyone else gets COOL stuff on the first go around but not uef! And honestly that just goes to prove my point, people abused it because it was good and it seamlessly flowed into meta because people were already comfortable with considering it in their game flow. I don't even think most people think of bubble shield as an option because every implementation has hovered around "at best, ultra omega rarely viable." Granted, part of that is because it is filling in at a really competitive upgrade timing for UEF while Cybran nano didn't actually have much competition.
Aside from that i honestly don't know how you came to this conclusion. You're cherry picking the mass and hp changes the uef shield, even though the biggest changes are focussed on the e cost, regen and recharge time
This makes it have a faster recharge time than first aeon shield, which is widely considered to have an insanely good recharge time.Well, it should. It's a bigger target that is taking more damage. It's also less HP (on a bigger target) and costs more (so you get it later). I didn't focus on much of that because it seemed to be at total tension with the mongoose point I read on the github issue. If it lowers super fast, how is it protecting my mongoose mix? How will my mongoose mix protect my ACU as the shield is down and needs to recharge? Why would I ever do this if parashields exist, are cheaper, are easier, and do not carry the inherent malus of tethering my mongoose to basically the slowest unit of the theater? In t3 stage it doesn't matter because that isn't fast enough to make it matter against anything larger than 3 mainline t3 units, same as Aeon shield recharge is irrelevant at that point.
We don't want to underbuff units yes, but obviously we don't want to overbuff them either and try to get their stats as accurately as possible from the get go. Aside from that i do intend to rather overbuff than underbuff units so it's easier to get data (especially since it's beta), but as you yourself know we have 0 data on the current shield which means it's harder to estimate how it will behave in a game.
I think this is still a big buff compared to the current UEF bubble shield. Will it be enough of a buff since it's bad atm? who knows. Sadly due to a lack of github enthusiasts this suggested bubble change that was decided on the 1st of october isn't in beta yet so we haven't been able to test it to see whether it needs further adjustments or not.
I think it's a giant misstep for the use of bubble shield in the scheme of the game and just seems like an attempt to buff range bots with anything besides actually buffing the units. All it really does is drag a potentially decent upgrade (for t3 survivability) down to the level of range bots rather than raising anything about the bots or the upgrade.
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I am also having mixed feelings about the change for the Bubble Shield, though I didn't want to be the first to say something without having tested them in-game.
However, now that others have spoken, here are my two cents:
Resource costs and regen time are a huge buff, yes, but the lack of shield HP is what was the main issue to begin with.
As far as I can tell, almost no one had any issue with resource costs or regen time, but rather with the SHP and SHP-related ratios with the associated resource costs.To put it bluntly, what's the point of the upgrade if the Shield will collapse sooner due to a lack of HP during a push?
Sure it'll regenerate sooner, but, by then, 60 seconds of time without a shield, that's detrimental.
(Just ask the Cybrans).
If 2 or 3 Parashields can obtain the same protection for FAR cheaper, then I'll gladly take the Personal Shield over the suggested changes, regardless."Oh, but Overcharge Protection"
Yes, that's still one benefit of the Personal Shield, but that tradeoff is still not worth 2,000 HP.
I'd also argue that even if a mobile shield dies to OC, it paid for itself because it still protected the units anyway.
I quote myself from this Github Post:
(The balance changes suggested for the upgrade have been updated since this github post, but the information I mention is what I am referencing.)The Bubble Shield's SHP-to-Mass ratio is still absurdly low when you compare it to the Personal Shield's ratio.
Bubble Shield (Current): 9,000 HP for 2,300 (3.913)
Bubble Shield (Suggested): 9,000 HP for 2,100 (4.285)
Personal Shield: 19,000 HP for 2,300 (8.261)Even with the very slight decrease in mass and build time, the tradeoff between Bubble and Personal Shield is still far too great.
Personal Shield will still take precedence over Bubble Shield.
For 200 mass, you more than double the HP of your Shield.
No one would pass that up. Saving 200 mass is not worth losing out on 10,000 HP.If I may offer, a more realistic approach would be to have Bubble Shield at around 12,000 SHP for a Mass cost of 1,500.
This would grant it a SHP-to-Mass ratio of 8.0. (Energy and BT costs can be adjusted to match.)
Slightly worse than the Personal Shield's ratio and stats (7,000 less HP), but still enough to make it a lucrative upgrade when compared to the Personal Shield.
That said, Bubble Shield and Personal Shield are not the same upgrades and should not be treated as such.
One is meant to protect one unit, while the other is meant to protect multiple units.
But, at a current HP of 9,000, it doesn't do much other than offer a few extra seconds of protection.Regardless, I am happy the upgrade is still a focus to better adjust.
As for the Stinger... nothing on the Preloaded LAB idea from the Discord Server?
~ Stryker
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AHHHHHHHH SNIPER NERFFFF AHHHHHHHHHHH IM COOOOOMINNMGGGGGGG
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@waffelznoob said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
AHHHHHHHH SNIPER NERFFFF AHHHHHHHHHHH IM COOOOOMINNMGGGGGGG
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I'll take a damage debuff before a range debuff on my sniper bots.
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@freemanitsnothe said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
@waffelznoob said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
AHHHHHHHH SNIPER NERFFFF AHHHHHHHHHHH IM COOOOOMINNMGGGGGGG
unfortunate, get good
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t3 bots still slower than gc resi
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Leave telemazor. Every good strategy game must have come back mechanics. Also it is very easy to defend against telemazor. You just have to remember to build t1 defense in base...
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@gobblerpl And you have to do that as soon as you see a cybran commander on the enemy team, since once he has the upgrades it'll be to late. So you spend the resources on the defence and he won't make telemazor so he got a 3k*player count mass advantage just for picking cybran.
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you mistyped 10k * player count
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Hello,
I would like to give a big compliment to the balance team!With a few exceptions, I think most changes that have being made in the last years to SupCom are absolutely correct and very well thought out. And especially with this patch!
In my opinion, every change makes sense.
But above all, I love the new shield discharge feature. Great idea, great work!
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The tack missile changes are broken at the moment. MML for aeon are unusable and cybran split missiles misses even more now. Sera tml now hits tmd before it can even shoot them down.
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This change was done a while back but the Salem seems a bit oppressive with the increased range. With the counter-intelligent boat in the mix the increased range is really beneficial and they can kite you until hell freezes over. And yes, I know about scout planes etc. but they reveal the fleet only for a second before being ´shot down. After that you will just take Salem fire without being able to shoot back.
In my opinion a balanced approach would be to reduce the range since the stealth can keep you hidden until you are in range.
