The Problems With The UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy)

@rezy-noob said in THE PROBLEMS WITH THE UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):

Fatties are quite balanced i'd say, yes you can't push since it's not a siege weapon, but it does it's job extremely well when defending a base/reclaim field, ofc you need to babysit it and since shields get spalshdamage, parashield are irrelevant when protecting a fatty, it really goes down to fatty being a supportive unit and the main army being the "main" unit which is not the case for any other faction.

The Fatboy is perfect for long-range engagements - it's basically a T4 sniper bot. Yes, it's a supportive unit, and it can have a huge impact on a game, but its not very good at anything else, whereas all the other Exps can have multiple roles, so to say.

arty protection will probably be beyond broken

T3 MAA was a controversial idea when it was added into the game. But, it was adjusted over time. The same can be done here. It doesn't have to be a one-time change - it can be adjusted over time and even before it is released, too.

getting 3 stacked fatties is pretty much gameover for any defender since it will have 0 counters besides air/nukes.

Critical mass in units usually works. If your opponent manages to get 3 experimentals, well... Game might be over, by then.

Arguably, the same thing can go for any other Experimental, 3 Ythothas, 3 Megaliths, 3 GCs - air and nukes are a counter to all of these, too. Yet these have more of a chance to deal damage as these units are tankier and are direct fire.

need to keep in mind that fatties are getting value over time, it's not designed to get 20k mass killed in the first 2 mins of hitting stuff.

How does this help the unit? It's already daunting that it isn't a direct fire Exp.
Sure, it's not designed to be direct, as you said, and that isn't a problem, but it doesn't help its case, either.

does it need a buff? maybe
is it really needed? no

Well... there are definitely issues or stats that should be addressed and/or updated.

~ Stryker

Fatboys scale way better in large quantities than chickens or gcs.

What role does a GC have besides walking into units and bases exactly?

The Fatboy is the only true experimental. Clearly the designers had no idea what they were doing and just threw a bunch of shit together, hence experimental. All the others are fakes. Change my mind.

In the campaign when you run into a monkeylord they say what is that thing? See it's experimental because the uef didn't even know about it.

Fatboy really needs some love. 4 T2 arty should not be a valid counter to an experimental.

100% agree that the Fattie needs a buff, I'd say just up the HP by 5k or so, maybe up the speed just barely a touch, and it'd be good, but these are definitely interesting suggestions.

My good friends did you know the relative difference between a GC and a fatty in speed is about equivalent to the difference in speed between a titan and a sniper?

I am very intrigued by @Jip's suggestion to incorporate an Anti-Artillery system.
I would really like to see a new, unique mechanic be implemented into the game.

~ Stryker

IMO The fatty just needs better AA like flak, as at the min it just gets owned by t1 and t2 bombers, i never understood why the developers gave some units AA but made it so week it might as well not be there.

I doubt that flak helps a lot if the fatty just gets sniped by 15 nothas. Spread them out a bit, then target the fatty. 1-2 might die, the rest gets through

who cares that fatty is weak to air and arty, how about emphasizing its strengths instead of just turning it into another facetank t4 variant

@ftxcommando said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):

how about emphasizing its strengths

Its main -and only- advantage lies in its range.
So... are you suggesting expanding its range?

If that's the case, I would concur that an extended range could assist in dealing with certain counters by allowing it to fire a second or two sooner.

However, I get the feeling, that even with an increased range, it will still fall short in terms of overall effectiveness.
Its deficiency does not solely lie in range, but rather in its survivability.

As previously mentioned, the suggestion made by @Jip to incorporate a new Anti-Artillery system could potentially provide the necessary boost to enhance its survivability - even if it's just a tad bit.

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando And what strenghts would that be? The parashield barely covers anything, and the mega is better at long distance bombardment.

Do we increase shieldsize? Increase ROF or damage? Maybe speed? The damn thing is on tracks after all, while the mega has to scuttle with its legs.

yes make it faster

Are you referring to only the top speed stat?

Or a more agile unit, overall?
Faster turn rate, acceleration, braking, top speed, etc.

~ Stryker

Fatty is as slow as a sniper is compared to a titan. This is insane when the relationship between fatty and GC/chicken/I guess ML but not really is closer to percival vs sniper.

The speed of percy/fatty is a holdover from the days when UEF t3 stage was "ok so shift+g everything into a deathball and click enemy base/t4/acu"

Nowadays it doesn't work like that because the loss of 25% of the percy HP means aoe is now extremely powerful against them. The speed of t4s mean that you can see 25k mass in percies coming at you and just build an emergency mass dump t4 and, if those percies are split up in order to avoid the impact of aoe, will now not be able to consolidate in time and will instead engage the t4 5-9k mass at a time and instead of do damage actually gain it hp through vet feed.

Percies need to have a risk/reward mechanic revolving around speed so that you can punish defensive t4s through surrendering map control, consolidating at the right moment, and killing the t4. Consolidate too early and you risk aoe tools getting a shot at you. Consolidate too late and you vet feed. In current balance you either consolidate before you push and forever risk aoe death or you just don't push because T4s are 20% faster than percies.

Fatty is softly related to all of that. It faces the same punishments that sniper does (air, arty, tml) while having the speed of a percy against the equivalent of units that have the dps/tankiness of percies but the speed of titans. It's 1.75 speed against 2.5. This not only makes building up a critical mass of fattys (2-3) a pain in the ass because it takes 2 minutes to reinforce even on a 10x10 map, but it makes it insanely easy to scout it super late and still build up a decent defense against it. If a GC was 1.75 speed it would also be extremely easy to kill because you build up a dump of 20 pd and 2 shields and it autodies. It tries to turn and attack around the PD and by the time it reaches that point, it's been 2 minutes and the same defense is up again.

The balance of percy/fatty is fine on a unit relation level, the problem is that it is not synchronized with the change in UEF doctrine to be about constant gorilla push and pressure at the t3 stage. UEF doesn't have the time to sit down and do nothing while it builds a death ball.

Just as a spitball I'd do smth like
Percy 2.1 -> 2.2
Brick stays 2.3
Chicken/GC 2.5 -> 2.1
ML 2.5 -> 2.2
Fatty 1.75 -> 2.1 (you can argue higher or lower here honestly, but it should be around the same as other direct fires)
Mega is 2.0 which is fine tbh, though I don't mind it also going 2.1 if people want.
Then you can buff harb and othuum to 3 and 2.9 respectively to eat a bit into the titan/loya insane speed as compensation. Or you can keep it the same since that brings harb back to the speed in pre t3 rebalance. No idea what is good.

Fatboy scales very well, without air it’s pretty hard to beat Fatboy spam. It’s a unit that’s supposed to slowly gain value over a long period of time, changing that identity too much would be very frustrating to deal with. Yeah it does suck that it gets countered by a T2 defense structure but T2 arty fucking blow, having to build a lot of them is an L in itself.

@ftxcommando said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):

Just as a spitball I'd do smth like
Percy/Brick 2.1 -> 2.3
All direct fire t4 barring mega 2.5 -> 2.1
Fatty 1.75 -> 2.1 (you can argue higher or lower here honestly, but it should be around the same as other direct fires)
Mega is 2.0 which is fine tbh, though I don't mind it also going 2.1 if people want.
Then you can buff harb and othuum to 3 and 2.9 respectively to eat a bit into the titan/loya insane speed as compensation.

Why would you even build a ML ever at that point, if it can’t catch anything it beats

List of things Percy can beat that it can catch: ACU, fatty

T4 = concentrated mass as a foundation for your t3 to support, not solo king mega army destroyer that catches any bots intended for late t3 stage.

Like did you read anything I wrote about the dynamics of t3 spam vs t4s

I will say that ML is a bit of a special case in direct-fire and CAN have .1 speed more than other direct fire t4s or so, but it having more speed than siege bots is dumb as hell.

loss of 25% of the percy HP

Random thought that just popped into my head...

The Ambassador's damage was increased as the UEF didn't have a decent T4 air experimental.
The same thing could be said about the Percy and relative T4 land experimental (The Fatty), but instead of an increase in a stat,
it received a decrease in damage, fire rate, range, and HP.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong in the overall sense and utility and role of the T3/T4 stages, but if Percies are supposed to be Experimental killers, then what's the point of a Fatty? A Long-range tickler?

In a sense, The Percy makes the Fatty almost pointless, but can't even hold its own anymore, either.
Two half-built units.

~ Stryker

Give more base HP, reduce speed. Will also help with its very low-HP wreck.