The Problems With The UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy)
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It is, undeniably, a unit with a personality conflict - and as such, it should and does suffer for that. The cost, and weight of the factory are directly responsible for it's girth - and pokey movement - and, to some degree, it's need to rely upon a shield rather than heavy armor, for the bulk of it's protection.
As a combat unit, that makes for some very uncomfortable conditions. Saddling the already stressed frame, with heavy but rangey battleship guns, doesn't entirely make up for the lack of knife fighting ability - which the riot guns only partly address.
The Wyvern BattlePack took a stab at those issues, basically copying the Fatboy, stripping out the factory, and replacing it with a true artillery piece. This was a nice adaptation, but it doesn't solve the fundamental mobility and protection issues.
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I agree on all points and the sheild HP switch is a nice touch
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70 range on the riot guns feels over the top - they look similar to T1 PD type turrets, so I'd rather they got a bit more of a DPS boost than a range boost as 70 range sounds like it'd visually be a bit strange
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A nerf to the fatboy's shield makes it less effective long term, since the damage to the health is permanent whereas the damage to the shield can be recovered if using the fatboy in an attritional style (which its long range favours). It also makes it weaker against air where the opponent isn't going to 1-shot it with air, since it's more likely the air attack will damage its health before you can retreat it far enough behind an AA escort.
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Anti-arti shells sounds complicated and unintuitive, and would be a significant deviation from the original FA (increasing the barrier of entry for new players)
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Agree with most of the option 2 continued options (torpedo boost; AA boost - although again I'd prefer DPS over range since the AA looks similar to a T1 AA turret; building on the move)
M27AI and M28AI developer; Devlogs and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v71-devlog
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5331/m28ai-devlog-v150 -
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I still don't understand why people think Fatboy is bad. I've had games the last week where I've had several fatties hit anywhere between 50-200k mass killed. All it required me to do is make a few t3 engies to spam t2 shields and have percies/maa (which I already had since the fatty is a natural continuation of a percy push rather than the initiation of a push) supporting it.
These pushes went into billy ACUs, went into t2 arty, went into TML. I did end up losing some fatties to like 4 czars tho
Once the fatty percy push breaks through the first line of defense which often has the most mass invested into defense, there is essentially 0 that stops the snowball except air. And with proper air defenses, there is going to be 0 besides air t4s.
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@maudlin27 said in THE PROBLEMS WITH THE UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):
- 70 range on the riot guns feels over the top - they look similar to T1 PD type turrets, so I'd rather they got a bit more of a DPS boost than a range boost as 70 range sounds like it'd visually be a bit strange
It is difficult to see the changes until they are in-game. I did my best to see if we could match them to better represent what you're looking at. Just for reference, the Fatty can shoot up to 100 range units away. 70 may be a little far, yes, but it is still a significant (30 range units) distance away from its max range.
- A nerf to the fatboy's shield makes it less effective long term, since the damage to the health is permanent whereas the damage to the shield can be recovered if using the fatboy in an attritional style (which its long range favours). It also makes it weaker against air where the opponent isn't going to 1-shot it with air, since it's more likely the air attack will damage its health before you can retreat it far enough behind an AA escort.
You share a good point. In hindsight, perhaps the Regen rate of the Fatty could also be increased? But, I believe that the way the new shield works, it would be far more beneficial, as when it fails, it would be back up in a very short timeframe. Sure, the HP of the shield would still be low, but it would make sense for it as it is basically a very expensive sniper bot. Long range and kiting is its strength, the shield is just that.. a shield.. the Base unit should have more HP - It's a Factory, not an energy storage.
On top of that, I'm certain that the increase to it's base HP would make it far more versatile, even if the shield is down. With the increase to the HP, the veterancy would be far more useful.
- Anti-arti shells sounds complicated and unintuitive, and would be a significant deviation from the original FA (increasing the barrier of entry for new players)
From what I hear, Arty shells already have 1 HP. These 'TMD' would just be told to target Arty shells... the game won't see much a difference between a shell and / or a missile - so, I don't believe it would be too dificult to add into the game. Then again, I'm not a developer, but @Jip did make it sound quite easy to implement. Time consuming, maybe, but easy...?
As for deviation from the original FA game, well... there's already a LOT of that.
We're looking at drastic changes. The HQ system, new units (T3 MAA), rebalances and reworks, even fundamental things like how the game processes everything was changed. Sure, that's all under the hood, and the average player wont see it, but, I feel like the game needs to evolve - preferances change, and if we don't change too, then the game may as well be dead.That's the whole point of FAF - an evolution to a game we all loved! The community, the developers have kept this game alive - because the game evolved with us, too.
- Agree with most of the option 2 continued options (torpedo boost; AA boost - although again I'd prefer DPS over range since the AA looks similar to a T1 AA turret; building on the move)
Thanks for agreeing with me here. The Defenses are quite lackluster and may as well not be there. Range may not be the main issue, but damage certainly is.
But, as I said - keeping up with the theme of the Fatty - the closer you get (and you will, considering the Fatboy's slow speed makes every other unit catch up to it.) the more damage is dealt as more weapons open up.
~ Stryker
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@ftxcommando said in THE PROBLEMS WITH THE UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):
I still don't understand why people think Fatboy is bad. I've had games the last week where I've had several fatties hit anywhere between 50-200k mass killed. All it required me to do is make a few t3 engies to spam t2 shields and have percies/maa (which I already had since the fatty is a natural continuation of a percy push rather than the initiation of a push) supporting it.
These pushes went into billy ACUs, went into t2 arty, went into TML. I did end up losing some fatties to like 4 czars tho
Once the fatty percy push breaks through the first line of defense which often has the most mass invested into defense, there is essentially 0 that stops the snowball except air. And with proper air defenses, there is going to be 0 besides air t4s.
Thanks for sharing that, looking forward to a replay, if you don't mind.
But, the Fatboy isn't "bad". As I stated, it just requires a lot going for it, otherwise, it is useless. For other Experimentals, that's not such a big issue because of the larger HP pool, and/or damage they can deal. Being a direct fire Exp, also plays a huge role in this.
A GC is meant to spearhead a push - to be the tank;
A Monkeylord is meant to catch you by surprise - high damage and stealth;
An Ythotha is meant to be destructive, and to clear a path;
A Megalith, all in one! Tank, long-range, high damage, and a factory.But a Fatboy? Its main role is to weaken bases, and armies, right? But it doesn't even do that effectively - not saying it should be able to take care of them with ease, either, - but it doesn't get the chance to due to all the risks it needs to counter.
The secondary role is to be a Mobile Factory, yet this is rarely used, too. And its close-range defenses, may as well remove them.
But when it does get those perfect instances, it does rule! Hence why the kiting is so effective. But if it doesn't, then it'll end up like the ones you mentioned, dead to Czars.
~ Stryker
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I'd like to see it have a resource discount to the units it can produce.
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It literally does do that effectively.
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Fatties are quite balanced i'd say, yes you can't push since it's not a siege weapon, but it does it's job extremely well when defending a base/reclaim field, ofc you need to babysit it and since shields get spalshdamage, parashield are irrelevant when protecting a fatty, it really goes down to fatty being a supportive unit and the main army being the "main" unit which is not the case for any other faction.
arty protection will probably be beyond broken and getting 3 stacked fatties is pretty much gameover for any defender since it will have 0 counters besides air/nukes.
need to keep in mind that fatties are getting value over time, it's not designed to get 20k mass killed in the first 2 mins of hitting stuff.
does it need a buff? maybe
is it really needed? noqueuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko -
@ftxcommando
Damn really? every time I use it I'm like 'woah awesome build power' but its consuming 45 mass per sec to build some mobile aa. Ok I never did the maths but it always felt like you got the build power but no discount.Felt like if it consumed a somewhat similar amount to a normal factory then people would have good reason to leverage its factory capability on the front line.
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@relentless said in THE PROBLEMS WITH THE UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):
I'd like to see it have a resource discount to the units it can produce.
I could've sworn that in the original game, the ACU had something similar to this.
~ Stryker
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@relentless He wasn't responding to you
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ah ok, you can see how it'd seem like it
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@rezy-noob said in THE PROBLEMS WITH THE UEF - Part 8 (The Fatboy):
Fatties are quite balanced i'd say, yes you can't push since it's not a siege weapon, but it does it's job extremely well when defending a base/reclaim field, ofc you need to babysit it and since shields get spalshdamage, parashield are irrelevant when protecting a fatty, it really goes down to fatty being a supportive unit and the main army being the "main" unit which is not the case for any other faction.
The Fatboy is perfect for long-range engagements - it's basically a T4 sniper bot. Yes, it's a supportive unit, and it can have a huge impact on a game, but its not very good at anything else, whereas all the other Exps can have multiple roles, so to say.
arty protection will probably be beyond broken
T3 MAA was a controversial idea when it was added into the game. But, it was adjusted over time. The same can be done here. It doesn't have to be a one-time change - it can be adjusted over time and even before it is released, too.
getting 3 stacked fatties is pretty much gameover for any defender since it will have 0 counters besides air/nukes.
Critical mass in units usually works. If your opponent manages to get 3 experimentals, well... Game might be over, by then.
Arguably, the same thing can go for any other Experimental, 3 Ythothas, 3 Megaliths, 3 GCs - air and nukes are a counter to all of these, too. Yet these have more of a chance to deal damage as these units are tankier and are direct fire.
need to keep in mind that fatties are getting value over time, it's not designed to get 20k mass killed in the first 2 mins of hitting stuff.
How does this help the unit? It's already daunting that it isn't a direct fire Exp.
Sure, it's not designed to be direct, as you said, and that isn't a problem, but it doesn't help its case, either.does it need a buff? maybe
is it really needed? noWell... there are definitely issues or stats that should be addressed and/or updated.
~ Stryker
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Fatboys scale way better in large quantities than chickens or gcs.
What role does a GC have besides walking into units and bases exactly?
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The Fatboy is the only true experimental. Clearly the designers had no idea what they were doing and just threw a bunch of shit together, hence experimental. All the others are fakes. Change my mind.
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In the campaign when you run into a monkeylord they say what is that thing? See it's experimental because the uef didn't even know about it.
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Fatboy really needs some love. 4 T2 arty should not be a valid counter to an experimental.
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100% agree that the Fattie needs a buff, I'd say just up the HP by 5k or so, maybe up the speed just barely a touch, and it'd be good, but these are definitely interesting suggestions.
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My good friends did you know the relative difference between a GC and a fatty in speed is about equivalent to the difference in speed between a titan and a sniper?
