Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.

Arran

Problem
The Titan's personal shield comes back online too fast after being reduced to 0.

Data (from Github)
Harb shield = 1000. Titan shield = 700.
Time taken for shields to come back online:
Harb = 30 seconds. Titan = 12 seconds
Yes. 300 HP of shield extra takes 18 more seconds to charge.
Fix this.

Solution(s)
Options:

Reduce Harb shield hp by 300 and recharge time to 12 seconds.
Increase Titan shield recharge time to 21 seconds (same time/hp as Harb).

Or anything in-between options 1 and 2 which are extremes.
I'd trade 300 shield HP off a Harb any day for 18 seconds off the shield regen delay!!!

Jip

The recharge rates of shields are all over the place anyway. Take the recharge rate of a Fatboy - once his shield drops it essentially doesn't come back anymore.

Frozen_byte

Is there a formula to have an equal and fair recharge rate across factions?

I don't mind if cybran is faster recharging their shields.
UEF has a longer timeout before recharging.
Aeon has a slow recharg but nearly no timeout.
some uniqueness, or so whatever.

But there should be a common ground like "1k HP should take ~30 seconds and has a 5-second cooldown"

Turinturambar

@arran said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

Problem
The Titan's personal shield comes back online too fast after being reduced to 0.

This explains nowhere why this actually would be a problem INGAME. The argument faction A has X, so faction B needs it aswell is a fallacy and shouldn't have a place in balance discussions.
If you want to actually make a point, please expand on your reasoning, either based on ingame balance, or based on overall unit design principals (in which case it would be, to provide a concept on how shield reachging in general, or for all all units that fit a certain role (harbs and titans do not necessarily fit into the same role...), should be done in a comprehensive manner).

In the current form you only argument is jealousy.

maudlin27

@frozen_byte While having consistent shield recharge rates per hp might be more intuitive, I think it would worsen gameplay, since you'd end up with very large shields taking forever to recharge vs small shields (or small shields taking too long to be of much use in most scenarios).

E.g. if you were to equalise everything to recharge at the same rate as a titan (700hp over 12s, or 58.3hp/s), a fatboy would take 5.7 minutes instead of its current 2m - and 2m is already a long time. If you were to use the rate of a fatboy, then a titan would recharge its shields in just over 4s! It also doesnt make sense to me that a unit that costs 28k mass would have the same 'shield hp regen/s' when the shield is down than a unit costing 0.5k mass.

What might be more viable would be to normalise the difference between the active recharge rate and the inactive recharge rate to be a consistent measure across all units (e.g. shields recharge 75% to 100% faster when the shield is destroyed vs when the shield is active for all units) , but I'm not sure the potential benefits are there to warrant such a wholescale change (which would probably need a fair bit of tweaking and testing to try and keep units at a similar power level to currently).

Arran

@farmseatmushroom said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

faction A has X, so faction B needs it aswell is a fallacy and shouldn't have a place in balance discussions.

I disagree (i.e. no). Interfaction comparison is how there is balance between the factions in the first place.

@farmseatmushroom said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

In the current form you only argument is jealousy.

You are supposedly a member of the balance team and this is how you behave? You also don't consider balance between the factions so... Well, one can only assume things about your role on the team...

To answer the in-game ramifications (to spell things out).
12 seconds gets 700 hp = a phantom 58 hp per second regen. The caveat is that this regen is only active when the titan's hp = total hp - shield hp. Still ~60 hp regen per second is nuts. Why do you think players spam Titans, not Loyalists? Combine high hp regen on a fast unit which can disengage from combat on a whim and you have a problem. If you still don't see the in-game problem, perhaps retire?
That's all that needs to be said.

@jip said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

The recharge rates of shields are all over the place anyway. Take the recharge rate of a Fatboy - once his shield drops it essentially doesn't come back anymore.

To answer that point. The Fatboy ShieldRechargeTime is 120, same as the CZAR. Seems balanced to me considering the extra 10k shield HP on the CZAR is needed because AIR dps is higher than ground dps. Also 120 seconds for 20k hp is 166.7 hp/sec, much better than the 58 hp/sec the titan has.

Fun fact, the Titan has the fastest ShieldRechargeTime in the game, by about 8 seconds. Also only 4 unit types (on land) can outrun the Titan. 2 are non-combat (scout & mobile shield), 1 is the T1 lab, and the last are hover tanks (and firebeetle).

P.s. Perhaps YOU (people watching and hoping the titan isn't nerfed as it should be) should explain why the Titan needs its shield back within 12 seconds? Defend it.
P.p.s @maudlin27. Person of culture who's done their research. Respect. Also the benefit of your suggested change is easier barrier of entry for new players by normalising a gameplay behaviour. It also makes unit strength more transparent instead of some units having no regen while the shield is active, compared to massive regen when inactive. You could also make shields regen at the same rate whether up or down so its not a punishing when large HP shields are lowered, but not fully dropped.

Resistance

you can't have identical units everywhere, yes titans are stronger than some other raiding units, have you checked their other units tho?
and to answer your concerns, titans lose to loyas or harbs mass/mass, not to mention aeon has snipers so harbs is really just a mediocre unit

Frozen_byte

@maudlin27 good point! So the rate may scale with max shieldHPs.

Arran

@Rezy-Noob I'm not asking for identical units. I'm asking for the Titan to have, lets say 5 - five seconds or so added onto its ShieldRechargeTime. This will make it less oppressive when poking vs, lets say, the loyalist, which lacks HP regen.
#bangingheadagainstbrickwall

Giebmasse

I think OP should check out the balance thread guidelines a bit closer: https://forum.faforever.com/topic/759/balance-thread-guidelines
That is, if you actually want this thread to have any kind of potential meaning/impact. Otherwise the current path it is going, this is probably going to be locked quite quickly.

Dragun101

Why does it matter UEF has a nice toy? That Cybran doesn’t.

The answer is because they are UEF. Are more specifically they are not Cybran (nor are they Aeon, or Seraphim). Don’t get me wrong, I think T3 Stages has “issues” (mostly I feel deployment time for T3 Units takes too much. A T3 Unit takes almost 3 (unassisted) minutes to be built, and deployed, then sent to the front. I’d love to see T3 Facts BP Increase and/or supports made cheaper sk viable deployable closer to front. But that a different issue).

But factions are different some factions are just better than others. And do more with similar units. Cybran doesn’t have a Power Early T3 MBT/Raider like a Titan/Harb. But has one of the “Cheapest” frontline style experimental (Monkeylord). You can and often see more Monkeys (at my garbage elo) than Fatboys. Does it mean nerf monkey?

No, Cybran is not UEF/Sera/Aeon. Different factions have different strengths and weakness. Balance in this regard is not “balance” as we think A = B. But A + D = B + C. UEF doesn’t have the Absolver or any floating land combat units outside Riptides. Which are rareish. Compared to Aurora, Aslyum, Blaze’s, and the multitude of other Aeon Hover Units. Does that mean nerf “Blaze”? No. Aeon is not Seraphim/UEF/Cybran.

Factionals having Power Units is not by nature “unbalanced”. Power Units are what allows Factions nuances too shine.

Terminal

@arran said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

You are supposedly a member of the balance team and this is how you behave? You also don't consider balance between the factions so... Well, one can only assume things about your role on the team...
To answer the in-game ramifications (to spell things out).

Turins point of you only looking at statistics and not including any in game balance or reasoning is completely valid. As Rezy said titans lose to Harbs mass for mass anyways. Throwing in snarky comments after also only shows you who are.

Nex

@arran said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

@farmseatmushroom said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

faction A has X, so faction B needs it aswell is a fallacy and shouldn't have a place in balance discussions.

I disagree (i.e. no). Interfaction comparison is how there is balance between the factions in the first place.

Yes comparing factions is necessary, but your proposed solutions were just aeon have 30 seconds regen for 1k hp so UEF should have 21 seconds regen for 700 hp.
So you were not comparing them to make a balance point, but rather saying "why can't my harbs regen as fast as titans". Which has no place in a balance discussion.
Also when comparing you would first start to compare the whole unit and not just a single stat it has and at best you would even look at the whole unit roster of both factions to compare how much impact these stats have on overall balance

@arran said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

Why do you think players spam Titans, not Loyalists?

But people do spam loyas?

@arran said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

To answer the in-game ramifications (to spell things out).

The whole point of balance threads is to spell things out. Why would you make a thread, saying do the math yourself?

FtXCommando

Why does OC depleting a harb’s shield not instantly kill it but it instantly kills asylums? Change it immediately.

Unknow

@rezy-noob @Terminal Lol Titans doesn't lose mass for mass vs harbs because they can choose when to engage because they are faster so your point is kinda nonsense too

FtXCommando

So harbs don’t lose mass for mass against percies, glad we got these balance issues sorted.

Arran

@giebmasse
OP was a sensationalist post.
Balance threads like this never have meaning. BTW OP only lacked ETHOS and JUSTIFICTION. ETHOS can be "I'm a X rated player (not 2000+ so no one will care about anything written thereafter). I play Aeon (bias confirmed). The Titan is OP because it trades better than literally any other unit. Post written with 1v1 and team games in mind." JUSTIFICTION can be "Make Titan ShieldRechargeTime = 18 seconds. This keeps it better than the Harb (for no good reason other than to pander to UEF sims) so as to keep its viability as a raid unit, compared to a core combat unit (see the logic flaw yet?). This increase/nerf will not affect its in combat performance (a lie bc 12sec is enough for recharge during fight) while hampering its sustain potential, allowing Titans that have snuck through into the back lines to be more easily cleaned up. As it stands it is too hard to clean up a titan run by because of their shield compared to the loyalist with no BS super quick recharging shield (true fact). This 6 second increase will greatly help (it might, but we'll never know bc balance posts are almost as useful as screaming in a vacuum) balance this aspect of the game."
As one of the people who used the guidelines before they were made and was happy when they were made, I'll just say that they don't work and I don't see the point in making the effort anymore. Sure they make the OP nice, but the trash comments which follow are demoralising. You spend over an hour fact checking, making evidence, only for Joe Blog to say something dumb like, "you can't compare between factions" or some other BS riddled with flaws that clearly didn't take an iota of time compared to your OP.
Some responses (because it's fun poking the beehive)
@Dragun101 Nice post. Just missing anything concrete. Why for instance, would the titan be broken, unusable if it took 18 seconds not 12? Would it not still be almost as good at before? If the balance team had made this change without telling you, would you have noticed? (the answer's no)
@Terminal Statistics is in game balance. If it wasn't, what are we even talking about? Titans lose to harbs, and loyalists and strategic bombers. The only relevant comparison among those was the loyalist. Even that has nuances. Like only winning with ~200hp. Also this was only because of alpha damage. Lastly, you didn't notice that had the fight lasted ONE SECOND LONGER the titan would have gotten its entire shield back and won instead? "But that didn't and won't happen" you'll say. With micro and a big messy battle, dropping out of range for 1 second is very realistic. In fact, it's very common. Who am I? Not a 2bit hack.
@Nex Harb buff you think I ask for? What folly. They would be high as the sky OP if they got buffed. Rather, I ask for a Titan nerf. Just so happens that loyalists don't have shields, so my next closest point of reference is the Harb. I do not want titan=harb. I want titan=loyalist. Cybran needs a leg up in T3 land when against UEF, or do you also disagree with that.
Please, anyone, give me a good REAL reason why the Titan NEEDS to be kept the same. Why it is essential that Titans have a vastly faster shield recharge than any other unit.

@ftxcommando said in Titan shield recharge after collapse OP.:

Why does OC depleting a harb’s shield not instantly kill it but it instantly kills asylums? Change it immediately.

I don't often agree with what you write, but on this instance I agree (leaves a bad taste in my mouth). Not completely agree (no pink flying elephants yet). Just agree enough that damage should carry over from the OC onto shield, into HP.

Can anyone tell me the last time the UEF got nerfed? Just asking for a friend. I wonder why I can't remember. Looks up in the thread... Ah... The warriors.
Also yea, @Giebmasse, lock the thread if you want. Also make guidelines for posts in threads while you're at it.

Dragun101

Cybran has Monkeylord/Cheap Land Based Frontline Experimental. And one UEF Design schemas is conception of rotation unit shields during engagements.

And you’d be surprised by random shit I notice or note tbf

Arran

Salt and topic deviation. Ah. I missed the forums. Feels nice being on the immature side "Come to the dark side, we have salt and cookies". - Forum salt miners.

FtXCommando

UEF nerfs:
drone bug fix
drone cost increase
ACU nano change
ACU hp change
ACU suite bp change
ACU shield change
ACU nano change
shieldboat
percy rebalance
t1 bomber nerf
pillar nerf
mongoose nerf
parashield nerf
ravager nerf
ambassador nerf
t3 gunship nerf
T3 navy stage in general since Aeon has the overall stronger T3 stage atm.