Buff Wagner back

Some history:
Some time ago Wagner was best amphibious tank to use as main tank
Then it was nerfed to level of other amphibious tanks
Then other amphibious tanks was buffed

Suggestion:
Buff Wagner to level slightly below current amphibious tanks
For example:
mass cost 297 -> 290
HP 1200 -> 1300

Justification:
I use DPS*HP/mass^2 as combat effectiveness estimation

Aeon Blaze: 1,697530864
UEF Riptide: 1,58203125
Seraphim Yenzyne: 1,701446281

Wagner now: 1,360405401
Wagner suggested: 1,545778835
Wagner old: 1,643823193

I don't have good replay on my hands now. I can make synthetic test if needed.

This is not sufficient to "Showcase the Problem" (you litterally ignore the entire rest of the T2 stage, faction design, how these units are used ingame and micropotential).
You litterally only say that wagner raw stats are weaker without even showing why it would be an issue.

Not shown: Wagner is only stealthed amphibious tank (invisible to radar when on the sea bed.) I'm not against a small buff, but the OP doesnt do a good job showing it is necessary.

@FunkOff said in Buff Wagner back:

Not shown: Wagner is only stealthed amphibious tank (invisible to radar when on the sea bed.) I'm not against a small buff, but the OP doesnt do a good job showing it is necessary.

And also it's only amphibious tank that cannot be used to retake navy. Evens out as for me.

Buff is not necessary. Only problem that it will probably solve is Cybran T2 stage at hilly maps (which are rare).

That's more of remainder. If you're changing group than change entire group same way.

wagner aren't stealthed

Can any other amphibious tank hit a submerged Wagner even? If not why buff? It is meant to travel to and stay in water.

Thread clearly doesn't meet the guidelines. I suggest you go find my last Dual Gap game, where I built 100 Wagner, so you can go provide a replay of wagner being useless. I am currently unable to retrieve said replay ID.

Wagner have too low hp to safely cross any mildly sized naval army, and have terrible torps to boot. Stealth is laughable.

IIRC the justification for wagner nerf was that they are extremely powerful for raiding on larger naval maps like Roanoke. The nerf does make them pretty awful even compared to other hover tanks.

Still brings up the point that NO other default T2* hover tank can even hit a Wagner once it is under water.
Still brings up finding then using the unit for it's desired purpose.

@Psions said in Buff Wagner back:

Thread clearly doesn't meet the guidelines. I suggest you go find my last Dual Gap game, where I built 100 Wagner, so you can go provide a replay of wagner being useless. I am currently unable to retrieve said replay ID.

Wagner have too low hp to safely cross any mildly sized naval army, and have terrible torps to boot. Stealth is laughable.

It meet but barely.

Any hint how too find your replay? Game length, other players, your position?
You have a lot of Dual Gap games. Maybe more that I have games on all maps.

@advena said in Buff Wagner back:

It meet but barely.

Tbh you are missing 1 key point, and I've hinted at it several times just maybe not in away you understood properly.
You need to explain how you are using these in your personal games and what you've seen. While a replay would help a simple description of where the problem may be occurring can be done in text.

Wagner is complete gorbage. Make them able to better kill pd so they dont get hardcountered by 2 pds on islands

I think a good change would be to change their gun in a way they can hit pd reliably without hitting walls too much that way they are still sheit against units but get more viable at their actual only role: raiding

Looks like I should explain how I see roles of T2 amphibious units and why wagner is bad in some of them.

1. Raiding. Wagner is fine. Overall unit strength is not that important as speed, stealth, cost and DPS.
2. Land fallback option in different cases. In this area wagner is shit because of bad stats. This I suggest to fix.
   Reasons when you want to have fallback option:
   2.1) Swamp maps. They are rare and have other balance issues.
   2.2) Overall choice of more mobile army in some cases.
   2.3) Bad main tank performance in some cases. Notably Aeon against T1 spam and Cybran at hilly maps
3. Navy fallback option. Not applicable to wagner. (Unless you make it floating on surface)

Most important problem IMO is 2.3

@advena Wagner basically is everything the t2 floaties are but worse, and missing the ability to properly damage navy. Blazes are much better at raiding than a wagner.

The stealth is pretty irrelevant.

the wagner at 200 mass or with more hp would be broken underwater, what they need is rocket damage to function better vs broken t1 pd and t1 spam out of range

Why not give Wagners stealth??????? Would emphasize their raiding role, fit well within the cybran faction theme, add fun and surprise to the game and I think stealth is an underused feature in faf where radar is so important in general. Come on!!

They already have stealth functionally speaking when they are underwater unless you mean sonar

Add a Float/dive button?

You cannot combine Wagner's role as annoying amphibious raiding unit on large map and a decent ish normal tank. Right now it does the first well while being a weak normal tank. If you buff it then it will become OP on large navy raiding maps, if you change it in a way that nerfs it's raiding role you remove the only thing that's special about it. There is a case to be made for nerfing it's under water speed even more while buffing it's raw stats but again, you take away Wagner's advantages in its specialty because you want to bring it more line with standard bland tanks.