Reclaim in hard-to-reach places

[IndexLibrorum]

Let's not remove another aspect of faction diversity, but rather just build a transport.

[CaptainKlutz]

If there's a significant amount of anything only reachable by one faction on a map, that's the map designer's fault, not the game balance's

[Kilatamoro]

@indexlibrorum said in Reclaim in hard-to-reach places:

Let's not remove another aspect of faction diversity, but rather just build a transport.

Transports do not allow you to drop units on uneven terrain.

[Kilatamoro]

@captainklutz said in Reclaim in hard-to-reach places:

If there's a significant amount of anything only reachable by one faction on a map, that's the map designer's fault, not the game balance's

Aircraft can fall on mountains.

[IndexLibrorum]

@kilatamoro As Klux mentioned, that's an issue with map design, not an issue with a faction. Factions having different pros and cons on certain maps is an effect of faction diversity, which is a good thing.

[Kilatamoro]

OK, here is an example of a bad map called Seton's Clutch where you can't reclaim an ahwassa on a mountain: , where with red marked the spot where your transport drops units if you try dropping them close to the fallen ahwassa.

[Kilatamoro]

Here is my idea of how to fix this while keeping faction diversity: Cybran: jester gets a small reclaiming tool; Aeon: czar gets a giant reclaiming tool; Seraphim: transports get medium reclaiming tool.

Or just give reclaiming tools to gunships or transports.

[angelofd347h]

Gotta get creative with the factory attack move

[Nomander]

You can also interrupt pathfinding with engis on attack move (or SACU/ACU on patrol iirc) and they will lock on to and reclaim a single target using fac attack move range, which can be useful for this scenario.

[Kilatamoro]

Just a remainder that all factions still need flying reclaimers for impossible-to-reach places. Can't blame map makers. Anything will do. Even with tiniest build power, as long as it can reach places.

[Kilatamoro]

OK, but what about map generator? Would you blame it too if only UEF is able to reach some mass there? It's an edge case, but it is an important one.

[Kilatamoro]

Just an additional argument to giving all factions flying reclaimers: Engies trying to reclaim around cliffs are very stupid. They see a wreck on the other side, they decide to go all the way around just to get this one wreck, completely ignoring any other wrecks on their way, while flying engies eat everything perfectly. I also consider kennel drones to be the best reclaimers, not T1 engies: These drones cost approx as a T2 engi, have double BP and double speed (speed is very important in reclaiming), HP doesn't matter.

I don't even know how to properly reclaim close to cliffs, manually?

[Kilatamoro]

I am not taking kennel base cost into account because it's more about what you are risking to lose on the front line while reclaiming.

[Nuggets]

Its never going to happen. The balance is the way it is, and the maps are built around it. Sometimes you have niche cases where it would be good to have these drones, but its fairly rare (i cant think of a single game where i needed this in at least the last 1-2 years, if ever).
There are 2 scenarios:

1. the map maker put reclaim in a stupid place
   and 2) a unit died somewhere in the mountains.

For 1) its just the map makers fault. If he puts reclaim there its just a bad map. Even if every faction has flying engies.. you would be forced to manually reclaim that.
As for scenario 2)... as i said.. its way to rare to justify a case like this. As shown by angelofdeath you can get creative with attack moves in some cases.
I have yet to see a UEF player make drones for this case.

[Kilatamoro]

@Nuggets All I hear is "we don't want any change". If we were developing a new RTS, not blaming map makers for mountains would be pretty reasonable.

[IndexLibrorum]

I disagree there is a problem. So what that some factions can do something that others cannot? The benefit of having mobile drones for the UEF is... that they get mobile drones. The mobility is a feature, not a bug. Units can crash off-map, and the nobody can access it. Now there is a rare situation that one faction may be able to access it. That's an acceptable example of faction diversity, to me.

[Nuggets]

@Kilatamoro said in Reclaim in hard-to-reach places:

@Nuggets All I hear is "we don't want any change". If we were developing a new RTS, not blaming map makers for mountains would be pretty reasonable.

Clearly you are not reading what I said then.
If this would be a new issue, I agree the mapmakers would not be at fault, but this has always been the case. Its like saying we should be able to build a factory on a 180° angle and not blame the terrain the mapmaker put there.

If we were making a new RTS maybe this feature would exist from the start and is balanced around that. Maps would be played way differently, and even made differently with this feature.

This is not about wanting or not wanting change. This is filtering the good change from the unnecessary.

I cant help but repeat that if the mapmaker puts natural reclaim on a mountain or mountain side it is their fault for putting it there when there is no system balanced or implemented into getting that.
The next thing is you want underwater pgens because the mapmaker decided to have the entire spawn area water.

As I mentioned before, and you refused to reply to, the only realistic case is if an air wreck falls there. And I have also mentioned that you can work around the edges and the rest is not really relevant (based on the games I've been playing).

[Kilatamoro]

@Nuggets said in Reclaim in hard-to-reach places:

The next thing is you want underwater pgens because the mapmaker decided to have the entire spawn area water.

What is this even?

The issue here is that map makers don't have the tools to know if a fallen wreck could be accessed by only 1 faction or all of them. There is no tester for "You made your mountain too big".

And people are talking about removing the factory-attack reclaim. We will get back to this topic when it hits you.

[FtXCommando]

Only map I’ve ever had to use drones for anything was pyramid with the horrible plateaus that only aeon can reliably drop with their smaller footprint

[Kilatamoro]

OK, I didn't look hard, but here are some bad maps from Creative Team Top Picks (apparently, they don't know what they are doing):
Adaptive Pandemonium Pass (5k games):

Triad Terraces (2k games):

There are the wrecks of strats I dropped. Good luck reclaiming that if you are not UEF. I couldn't drop engies anywhere close.
Don't tell me this is faction diversity.