SACU Rebalance

Exselsior

Why lower basic SACU stats? Now a basic SACU cannot even kill 3-4 harbs

A basic SACU is also 2100 mass vs the ~850 or whatever a harb is. So mass for mass, a base SACU probably shouldn't be able to kill even 3 harbs. Especially considering the SACU is also a t3 engineer that gives mass and energy.

Chenbro101

If the base stats go down, lower the cost too. You can add that cost to the RAS upgrade. That way RAS SACU's cost the same but come with the nerfed stats and combat SACU's become easier to get.

As for new allocation on Cybran SACU, I think RAS should be on BACK and AA on same arm as stun gun.

Sainse

@exselsior Sorry for miscommunication. 3 habs do kill 1 SACU even now (i've picked aeon for the test). Currently sacu have 15k hp and 300 dps. If we drop it to 11.5k and 100 dps, 1 harb will kill 1 sacu! 11500 hp / 320 dps = 35 secs for harb to kill sacu while SACU would need 46 secs to kill 1 harb. And that's not even mentioning range reduction, which will allow harbs to outrange sacu completely.

1 harb will kill 1 sacu, not even brick or persie.

As for mass efficiency in general, don't forget the cost of quantum gates. In order to build SACU you need both T3 HQ and Quantum gates, it adds to the cost too. And SACU have high build power cost (compared to T3 support)

waffelzNoob

I don't really get the idea behind reducing base stats but increasing upgrade stats. No one even builds unupgraded sACUS and now there's even less of an incentive to do so. Overall, these are the changes to rambo presets i surmised:

UEF: 1.23x health reduction, 1.25x regen reduction, 1.25x damage increase, personal shield from 0 to 6500? not sure what this means
Aeon: damage unchanged, range is reduced 1.2x, HP (with upgrades) increased 1.07x., regen reduced. Looks like more of a nerf than a buff, unless chrono outperforms the shield significantly
Seraphim: hp pretty much unchanged, damage unchanged, regen reduced, but gets a regen field upgrade which stacks which is sick
Cybran hp unchanged, damage unchanged, regen reduced, but gets a damage area of which i really like the concept

Overall it looks like this isn't a buff to rambo sACUS. I understand this is a rework, but they will still die easily to T4s meaning they won't be very viable, except for aeon and seraphim being able to function as support units with chrono and regen field. UEF & Aeon rambo shield presets will still not be great. I like that the quantum gateway is made cheaper and I like the new upgrades they can get but I feel like they will function as support units at most and factions that can't get good support upgrades would rather not build sACUS at all (uef lol)

So I'm wondering what the idea is? Are they being reworked into support units, or kind of a T3.5 stage? If the goal is to make them support units I think UEF should be given something unique to help them fulfill that role (jamming is essentially useless, could just put 2 sparkies in ur army if u really wanted that effect)
If the goal is to make them T3.5 units then they should receive overall stat buffs to help them contend with T4s more, because as the game currently stands a T3 army performs better than a group of sACUS.

Nuggets

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

Sainse

This post is deleted!

Zeldafanboy

100 dps is useless at that stage of the game, might as well disable the gun until it’s upgraded

Exselsior

@sainserow Gotcha, makes more sense. The stat nerf seems like a little much without also lowering the build cost and time.

Touches on the point that no one builds unupgraded SACUs as it is, so what's the point/role for them? Are they now supposed to truly never be built? I suppose I actually don't have much of an issue with that other than it makes them a potential noob trap. Even then I don't think noobs are building unupgraded SACUs anyway, so maybe not much of one.

Related, I'd also like to know the overall goal of the SACU rework and what role(s) the balance team is envisioning for them so we can have a better understanding of the reasoning behind the changes.

waffelzNoob

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

uef rambos have always had shields gooner

Nuggets

@thewheelienoob said in SACU Rebalance:

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

uef rambos have always had shields gooner

not talking about shields gooner

Sainse

@exselsior

Touches on the point that no one builds unupgraded SACUs as it is, so what's the point/role for them? Are they now supposed to truly never be built?

I don't think so. I believe that basic SACUs should be cost-effective against T3 assault bots. Because if you have to build a whopping separate T3 building in order to build them, then they should be good against at least something.

And then later on they would lose to snipers, bricks and percies. But by that time they can be upgraded to become battle SACUs. Also in theory it works great with veterancy system. Since basic sacus without preset is calculated per their basic 2k mass cost.

@thewheelienoob Nuggets is probably talking about weird typo sh-EI-d (e-i swapped) repeated multiple times on github. if it even worth mentioning...

snoog

I like the changes tbh. I never understood why SACUs were so strong. It never made sense that they were better ACUs. I think turning them into actual SUPPORT ACUs will be a nice change and add some more depth to their usage and to late stage gameplay in general.

maudlin27

Thanks for including an overview of the changes - I've based my comments on that rather than reviewing the underlying file changes

General

I don't understand the nerf to base SACUs, they never felt strong before and their on death explosion also makes them weak to spam. From memory 1+ years ago I recall the justificaiton given to the then plans to nerf base SACUs was to nerf the combat potential of RAS SACUs, in which case why not lower the cost of base SACUs and increase the cost of RAS SACUs (so the base SACUs are roughly similar in combat potential to currently for their mass cost)?
Also disappointing that there doesn't appear to be a buff to the engi mode on SACUs which is really weak
I like the quantum gateway change as it felt inconsistent how factories are more efficient to build vs engineers due to the support factory mechanic but there was no equivalent support factory for gateways

Cybran

I don't like the introduction of a completely new mechanic not in FA, an area damage field, for Cybran. There are a few Cybran-like 'features' that could be explored if the aim is to give Cybrans 'something', e.g. stealth generator field; torpedo launcher; mini-monkeylord laser; none of which would involve a completely new mechanic and would be in keeping with faction specific features of other Cybran units

UEF

If I've understood right, the shield dome is the same as currently in stats, except for the cost of the upgrade which is less (due to not needing the personal upgrade first)? In which case I worry it becomes too powerful (although the slow speed of the SACU does make it harder to use than other mobile shields)
If the (personal) shield NewHealthMod affects the SACU health rather than the shield health then it doesn't make sense to me - I'd expect a shield upgrade to just give a shield, not to change the base unit health. I'm presuming (if this is what happens) it's because of the nerf to base SACUs, in which case either lower the cost of the base SACU to compensate, and/or increase the personal shield health

Overall I'm confused by the rationale behind these changes - my own impression is that generally SACUs are relatively weak units with only RAS SACUs seeing much use (albeit some of the other SACU presets do have some niche uses). I was hoping the SACU rework would therefore be focused on making the rarely used presets a bit more competitive overall. However given the nerf to the base SACU stats it feels like the reverse - that outside of a couple of exceptions the SACUs are being made weaker.

It would be interesting to understand the intent behind these changes - e.g. is it that SACUs are currently considered OP and the changes are aimed to stop them being too powerful? Or are the changes intended to make them more viable, in which case have I overlooked or not appreciated the impact of the changes at achieving this aim (quite possible)?

waffelzNoob

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

@thewheelienoob said in SACU Rebalance:

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

uef rambos have always had shields gooner

not talking about shields gooner

i understand what it means now, thanks skibidi

Reckless_Charger

So no Seraphim RAS then. Any changes to base mass/energy generation rates? If quantum gateway costs go down will RAS Bois be easier (for those factions which have it)?

ovenman

Sera shield:
I like sera shield rambo as a super tank for snipers to hide behind. If an army wants to get to the snipers behind, it has to go through ~45k of hp + regen + oc. I think of it as a bootleg ion storm. Chicken is ~30k mass for ~65k hp with ion storm. Sera is 10k mass for 45k hp. It's weaker of course, but also leaves less reclaim when it dies. Sure it's pretty niche/weird, but I still liked it. It should be easy to maintain the upgrade with the current changes.

Aeon sensor:
I've been curious about a sensor upgrade. Would be cool to see how it plays out. Will it have vision like aeon sensors, or just omni like the others?

FtXCommando

My take on SACU upgrades is that they should work as either:
A) A viable progression out of t3 armies
B) A viable tradeoff from t3 armies as an accommodation to t4s

Either one of these solutions require them to work in tandem with t4s which should never really be phased out (they cost a bajillion mass after all compared to both rambo and t3 and are obviously a hugely enticing part of the game culturally). Also keep in mind most of the subjective terms of scaling here mainly refer to other faction's SACUs. They're just statements on where the unit's powerlevel should be compared to these units.

So in terms of design principles:
First I think all combat SACUs need to be REALLY bad at building. Like genuinely terrible. They can have the t3 suite, but the notion of their utility should come from "we can start projects but we need support units to finish it up." They should have the buildpower closer to something like a sparkie than what they are in this readjustment where they are still superior to t3 engies. If you want to have the utility of emergency t2 shields or emergency sams with your SACUs, you need to mix engineer SACUs into your combat group rather than simply spamming combat SACUs. It should be its own tradeoff. You can keep engineers at the buildrate set here, but you definitely need to nerf rambos because if you don't, it really hampers how much fun you can have with introducing different styles of gameplay per faction.

UEF Rambo should operate like a really heavy titan, it should be faster than t4s with short range but decent HP and alright dps. The goal is for it to escort the perpetually slow and not very impactful fatboy while being able to split up to cause damage and force T4s to either be out of position or slow themselves down in order to deal with them. This gives time for fatboys to do damage to T4s that usually can just walk into it while also giving fatboys quicker damage dealing potential indirectly.

Sera should have OC boys that get reworked OC to work like old OC. It should be a fixed cost with a fixed quantity of damage. I say this because I would rather OC be a prevalent part of the sera SACU experience rather than just having like, 2. If you have 5 of them, you do not want the volatility that comes with scaling E cost OC because it makes your own damage unpredictable and it's annoying as a user for knowing whether you can take engagements or not. I do not think it's an enjoyable skill gauge. So do something like 10k e for 5k damage or something similar.

Likewise, since sera has no RAS suite, it should maintain a high base SACU buildrate which in turn gives it a competitive advantage on top of OC in SACU fights because it will be able to build support structures much faster. This synergizes well with the fact sera SACUs are going to be encouraged to be a concentrated ball in order to do major lump sum damage to high priority targets of the enemy. This enables chicken to continue to be the sera unit for dealing with spam of units while the SACUs are there to prioritize targets that a chicken will have issue with alone.

Cybran have 2 t4s that really hate being surrounded. ML laser sucks really bad at targeting around itself and mega wants things to always stay right in front of it. So Cybran rambos need to be big on stunning, but not particular damage dealers. They would likely be the most utility driven of the SACUs but the worst in "1 for 1" combat. Make them fast, solid hp, good stun, but not great overall damage.

Aeon would just be an upgraded variant of the current harb + gc dynamic. GC is a tank that absorbs damage while harbs provide cheap but efficient quantity of dps while targets focus the gc. Aeon SACUs would want to be slow, slower than t4s. I imagine them as the inverse of UEF combat preset. They would be really good damage, great range, slow speed, and not good health. You want them to force engagements on your GC but you don't want them exploring the world without GCs.

I'm not sure what the exact values would be, but something like this would create a dynamic at late t3 stage where you have the options of

A) continuing mass scale of t3 units
B) transitioning to SACUs to assist your t3 army through their own individual utility
C) transition to T4 to accommodate your t3 army

Ideally super late land armies would mostly be consisting of T4 and SACUs, with t3 units primarily being there as a utility force.

Noble_Ice

@maudlin27 I was also thinking of adding a torpedo because with cybran it's very punishable if you lose the navy and HARMS because now it's totally bad and easy to counter with ground fire... and laser is not a bad idea either, there would be interesting combinations with laser and torpedo

TheWeakie

Ill try to give a thorough explanation when i got time this weekend (or u can hop on stream to ask)

boom-

@theweakie can't wait daddy