Ahwassa seems useless

First of all, thank you to the FAF team who have generally improved the fun and balance of the game over the years. I recognize the challenge of keeping things balanced ... at various levels of competition ... without being homogenized among the races is formidable. And I think they've done a fairly good job.

In the current balance patch, CZAR and Soul Ripper are both pretty fun to use. They can be used offensively or defensively, plus have an effective death nuke. In comparison, the Ahwassa feels like a joke. It is more expensive (both in terms of energy and mass) than the other two, but with less HP. I get that that the Ahwassa fills a fundamentally different role (high speed, high alpha damage, low HP) compared to the other two (low speed, high DPS, high HP). But I would argue it has become so bad at its role, that it isn't worth using anymore.

In the old days, an un-scouted Ahwassa was scary ... and often "gg". First pass would drop shields and second pass would drop commander. Now they don't do enough alpha damage to drop a single T3 shield on the first pass, nor enough damage to snipe a commander once shields are down (apart from an un-upgraded Cybran ACU). So you're looking at a minimum of 3-4 passes to snipe ... which isn't really a snipe anymore ...

In terms of alpha damage, the Ahwassa does less than 4x T3 bombers at over 22x the (mass) cost. In terms of raw dps, the Ahwassa is worth only 1.2 T3 bombers!!! So you would never use it to harass enemy resources or land experimentals either.

Yes, the Ahwassa can be a mass sink, punching bag that potentially forces an air engagement where the opponent has to either focus on the Ahwassa or your ASF. But the CZAR and Soul Ripper are better at that too ... while still being formidable experimentals.

Finally, I get there are some higher level players that suicide the Ahwassa just after dropping it's payload for a double strike. But it obviously wasn't originally intended to be a suicide weapon like the Mercy or Firebeetle. There are ways to address this tactic without nerfing an experimental into the ground (literally).

Disclaimer: I've played FAF (and FA before it) for a very long time. My friends and I mostly just comp stomp with very little competitive ladder play. So I'm not really sure if Ahwassa's are tearing it up at high ranks or something. My guess is that they are rarely used, if ever. But feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

I guess I could offer a solution instead of just complaining ...

What if Ahwassa did bonus damage to shields? Such that the first pass would consistently drop base shields and the second pass would consistently do damage. It would also open up other strategies like staggering 2 Ahwassas or coordinating snipes with T3 stationary artillery, T3 bombers/gunships, etc for a one-two punch.

Just a random idea after my initial rant.

ahwassa has a good turning moment so you can try the hit and run tactics on ground units,not to mention that you can also just go for cntrl+ks that penetrate shields and snipe an important target.
it also has a somewhat good AA so in mid game it just doesn't die without damaging their air player's air.
i am not a fan of ahwassa but i wouldn't call it garbage anyways>:)

queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:

ahwassa bomb damage wasnt touched for at least 5 years

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTcguJZh3A .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

@Resistance Yeah, you're right. It's useful against clustered armies and navies due to its massive AOE. And it's useful as a glorified Mercy/suicide experimental. Outside of those two situations, it feels weak against heavily shielded bases and less fun compared to the newly balanced CZAR and the Soul Ripper.

@FurudeRika You're also correct. I could make a case that it has been indirectly nerfed during that time due to the removal of hover bombing and buffs to T3 shields. But realistically, I think the removal of hover bombing was a good thing and the buff to T3 shields was minor (aimed moreso at temporarily countering Mavor).

I guess my issue is that I shouldn't have to ctrl k my experimentals for them to be effective. But that's more of a personal preference.

First: Ahwassa IS scary and CAN turn the game if done early and with careful use. It should not be used for killing lone targets. More like fleets or armies or entire bases.
For this use you'll need:

  • good target choose (that's why early)
  • good micro to not die for AA
  • good cover or won air

Second: Ahwassa don't stop being scary if you have one valuable target (Paragon) because of T4 mersi way of use. Something that no other experimental can do

Ahwasse LGTM. It's hard to pull out but turns game when done correctly.

PS I can try to search replays with examples but they are not in hands reach for me.

@advena No need. BRNK has a good video on YT titled "It's raining Ahwassas" showcasing ctrl k snipes and bombing a naval choke.

There is nothing to talk about here. You’re just saying ahwassa sucks cuz it’s worse than t3 strats. Nothing in high level games support this. Next time follow the balance thread guidelines and actually include games showcasing the problem you think exists.

Your solutions would also break ahwassa and make it beyond OP, again, look at how it’s used in games and you would actually realize why those solutions are 100000% unviable.

@FtXCommando Sorry mate, didn't mean to shitpost.

My suggestion was to make it something other than a glorified Mercy. Obviously that footage doesn't exist. Just a lot of footage of it being a glorified Mercy. Conceptual changes won't be supported by statistical analysis.

Based on your response, compared to everyone else's, I probably won't post again. Again, thank you for the work that you do. And thanks to everyone else for constructive responses. Feel free to close and/or delete this thread.

I just got the perfect counter example replay of it: #13347277
if desynced you can also watch me screaming in disbelief how crazy it was (Fun starts at 3:22h): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/832598185
Yes I got incredibly lucky there that my opponent misplaced his air big time. But there is a window on setons usually min 20-30 where ahwassah is incredibly strong.

@harzer99 Hahaha, touche! That was epic.
Thanks for the shout out ... Lmao! X-D

Ahwassa is best bomber in all of FAF - drops basically a nuke and shoots down ASF too.

I'd argue that the ahwassa has a lot of utility outside of just being a glorified mercy, (unlike the czar which it's only utility is landing on top your base and smothering it to death) the ahwassa is super quick which allows it to be used as a hit and run bomber. It can also run quite a distance before ASF catches up which means that half of the time it will get back to your AA and be safe or in the best scenario, have an air fight on your side of the map over your AA, creating a delicious reclaim field that the other team can't use.

The ahwassa is very powerful if properly microed. It has a ground fire radius so large and lenient that it can almost ground fire behind itself and completely sideways is very easy to do. The AOE is insane which is it's best quality, not it's ability to break shielded bases or kill things with lots of hp such as other t4s. The Ahwassa has one purpose and that is to completely destroy unshielded bases and t3 armies/navies with one bomb, then quickly get back to safety.
Multiple ahwassahs will break a heavily shielded base but that mass is usually better spent elsewhere and if it fails then you have just donated what's equivalent to a game ender worth of mass in their base

I use the ahwassa quite often (relativly speaking) and often to great effect. I find that although its a little frustraiting how poorly it does against shields, the main limiting factor is how easy it dies to even moderage amounts of AA.
This kinda tells you of its intended role, its not a base destroyer. It wont work against areas with lots of shields amd SAMs. But everywhere else? a single bomb drop is enough to shut down almost any army.

@FtXCommando If people had to provide a game showcases every discussion, then nothing would get discussed as half the crap on here is theory crafting and not so obviously broken that a replay will suffice to show anything. Asking for a replay, in all but very specific cases is just meme tier.

If i wanna argue that aurora should have 5 more hp replay's wont be helpful.

That being said I think Ahwassa is in a very good place. It is very strong with its ctrl k nad a great game end killer or SMD killer. It is sufficiently expensive as well and acts as a more reliable alternative to TELE SACU. It also provides great functionality at killing navy clumps.

However, it does feel a bit too strong and cheap, in that no shield combination bar Bubble SACU will stop it from killing your para. But then I wouldn't say that is imba, as the player shoulda built more Air and SAMS and less para 🐷

What a coincidence, 80% of the stuff here should be removed regardless. Almost like the intent of the rule is finding a problem actually exists. Instead we’re here discussing why asswasher is not underpowered because a guy that mostly plays ai games probably can’t automatically break bases with it.

@Psions You can ignore FtXCommando in this subforum

His opinion almost newer differs from theme to theme. He don't provide valuable arguments either. Probably he sees many of things too obvious to explain.

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