Deribus' Patent Pending Fatboy Rework
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Fatboy has some issues. There have been many threads describing how it's fairly weak an ways to change it, so here is my attempt.
One of the main problems is that it's just so dreadfully slow. Not only does this make it difficult to micro and respond to new information, but it also means there is a long time between it getting built and it becoming a problem, since it will take forever to reach the front line.
Problem is, in its current form that speed can't be increased without making it an absolute kiting monster. That's because its turret arcs look like this:
It's just as, if not more, powerful facing rearward and could demolish armies without ever letting them get into range.This gives us two real options, either remove its ability to fire directly rearwards. or give it a deploy time like non-Aeon T3 mobile arty. The latter might be worth exploring but seems like it would feel like garbage to play, so I will focus on the former.
What if we changed its turret arcs?
This would be a sizable buff directly in front of it, as it can now point all 4 of its turrets at a single target, but it would also mean it can no longer fire while in a full retreat, giving us some options for a speed buff. It would also mean there is a reason to use its ability to back up, which at the moment is functionally useless.
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE
Fatboy is a combination of a land battleship and mobile firebase, and neither would be complete without TMD. Adding TMD turrets would require some modeling changes, and if previous history has been anything to go by that's been a difficult change to make. However, fatty conveniently already has two (let's be honest, functionally useless) AA turrets. Converting these to TMD should shore up one of fatty's weaknesses as well as giving it an additional unique element as the only mobile land TMD.
Screw it, mobile base? Give it some drones! Either T3 drones like the SACU upgrade or simple kennel drones to help out the factory element or the sparkies it pumps out.
Up until now I've avoided talking specific stat changes, because I think that's really missing the point of what makes a fatty problematic right now. But for the love of god fix that shield recharge time. It's currently a full 2 minutes which is almost 3x that of sera mobile shields.
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I think fatboy works well with the current balance sheet. Considering his high cost there is no point in taking away his back shooting, nor is it worth giving him tmd
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Rather then giving my insights to this idea, I'll just throw in my own and ppl can read / discuss it (It's like a Maths proof. Even though a different one might be 10 times better, the own proof / idea is always the best). I don't really have a strong opinion on the turret-ark since I don't see it as a huge problem; Yes, the fatboy has the biggest range among Exps, but for me the main problem remains its current state (see below)
- Drastically nerf the stats of the fatboy by a lot
- Buff costs (aka lower them) so it changes its role completely
thought process:
The current role of the fatty is to counter sniperbots. But for that role it's simply too expensive since snipers will play an important role earlier on in the game. So the main idea I was playing around is to move the Fatty from the current state into one way earlier during the game.
I am fully aware this needs a lot of discussion and I am fully aware that UEF already has no other experimentals for the endgame. So this would be paired with a small, potential Percy-buff or the new SACUs once they're getting an update.
Hf completely annahilating my idea
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Did a quick and dirty implementation of @Deribus and @Sladow-Noob suggestions , you can review it by playing FAF Develop. The exact changes can be found on Github. This is just for experimentation
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Thank you very much for implementing the idea!
I'll play around with it a little with my group (~1.7k rated) and provide some feedback here. I know the costs are purposely low atm, but if it fixes the mentioned problems while being able to defend stronger exps as well, I think it might be a good direction for the fatboy. -
@deribus I think your turret yaw change suggestion is quite frankly perfect. I 100% support.
I don't think changing the AA guns to TMD is a good idea. I agree that the fatboy needs mobile TMD, but let's be honest, the fatboy's AA is not bad. Sparkies should have TMD instead of their pee shooter, though. I can make a thread about that if you want. Using sparkies together with fatboys for TMD is a match made in heaven.
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One thing I don't like about it is the no rear shot makes it similar to the crab
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You can micro it just like a crab, why is that a bad thing? I don't think the "faction diversity" gets killed because of that change
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I still think the Fatboy should just get a bigger gun
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If the aim is to boost its speed without it becoming crazy good at kiting, what about combining a speed boost with smaller more powerful and slower shots from its main gun? I.e. making it even easier to dodge the fatboy's shots (so it doesn't become significantly better vs say a GC or monkey, but will still do well against groups of sniper bots or assaulting a shielded position).
I'm not entirely sure re the turret angle changes but on balance I think I prefer the proposed solution since to me it is more intuitive that a unit can deliver better firepower when directly facing the enemy/attacking it, vs the current scenario where you deal less damage.
I'm unsure about the proposed 'cheaper but weaker' changes, especially the planned significant reduction to shield health (but no change to current health). I'd much prefer less of a reduction to shield health but coupled with a health reduction to offset - 12k shield health is barely more than a seraphim mobile shield. I also worry that if these changes (stat changes) were done in isolation it would mean that even 1 well micro'd fatboy would lose vs 1 monkeylord/1 ythotha, meaning you'd need 2 fatboys for an equivalent position to before (which would be even more expensive).
M27AI and M28AI developer; Devlogs and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v71-devlog
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5331/m28ai-devlog-v150 -
@maudlin27 said in Deribus' Patent Pending Fatboy Rework:
I'm unsure about the proposed 'cheaper but weaker' changes, especially the planned significant reduction to shield health (but no change to current health). I'd much prefer less of a reduction to shield health but coupled with a health reduction to offset - 12k shield health is barely more than a seraphim mobile shield. I also worry that if these changes (stat changes) were done in isolation it would mean that even 1 well micro'd fatboy would lose vs 1 monkeylord/1 ythotha, meaning you'd need 2 fatboys for an equivalent position to before (which would be even more expensive).
The fatty being way too overpowered now is 100% possible. These stats were basically Jip lowering then with me being like "Nah.. Make them even lower, but keep the same range", they are not balanced and there is not a lot of thought process behind the exact numbers (aka. his stats were honestly prob more logical but I wanted to go to the extreme). It's just a thought experiment I wanna play around with, to explain it a bit further:
The main problem with UEF land is that it's vulnerable to sniperbots just as the Cybran land. UEF basically has the counter for sniperbots (Fatty), but because it's so expensive it doesn't really counter them, because you build fatboys only later on.
So what I want to try is "What happens, if we just make it way cheaper?", which brings follow-up questions with the obvious one being "But with what stats?" and honestly that questions doesn't really bother me for now. I don't care about the exact number, I just want to see what happens if we just do it lol.
Other questions being "Can it still counter stationary arty?", "Is it still viable during lategame (against Megas etc.)?", "Is the airsnipe-problem still the same?", "Can other factions (especially Cybran) defend well against an early fatty?" which I want to test.Some neat side effects I've noticed:
- The mobile factory-ability is actually useful now. Because currently the fatty costs 28k and by the time you have one, you have 5+ T3 support factories anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But because the fatty is so cheap now, you don't have a lot of support factories.
- If a monkeylord pushes and if you have two fatties, you can split them so the monkeylord can only chase one
- Due to Deribus' changes, you can micro it like a Megalith, with all four cannons shooting at the target while slowly retreating
Bonus effect: It looks cute now.
So yeah, currently it's just to play around a bit cuz in my head it's hard to imagine how the changes shift the T3 UEF gameplay. I can imagine it being enough if the fatty is around 18k mass, which is still a lot for 'countering sniperbots', so I wanna try around with even cheaper costs (+ some decreses of the hp, dps etc.).
I also want to mention that none of this was discussed in the balance-team, nor was it a thought others had. This is 100% just me being like "Damn.. What if.." -
I like the idea! A few concerns but interested in seeing where it goes, nonetheless.
If I may throw in an idea as well:
Why not increase the muzzle velocity (projectile speed)?That would seem like a good option that affects Damage consistency without affecting damage per second, and it would improve the feeling and reliability of the unit without the need for drastic alterations or reworks.
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Make the rear guns shoot forward so you get all the firepower attacking
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i see no problems here
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how tall the rear turrets would need to be to not shoot itself -
@madmax I did check that, but in-game it was incredibly difficult to notice
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Put em on a piston and extend as necessary. There, problem solved.
Let it not be said the UEF doesn't employ all its superior HUMAN engineering to achieve more gunfire on target.Alternatively, can the turret not shoot UP and in an arc? Then it'll clear the frame, no?
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also your firing arc image in the op doesn't account for the gun offsets
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The fatboy has always bothered me as a terrible design from the uef/gpg as it cant use all its guns, like a battleship can broadside and use all of them the best a fatboy can achieve is 3 out of 4
