Mercy Change - Not ready yet
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@strife said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
T1 bombers are still insanely effective against stuff like that. Ofc you can argue that flak will oneshot them - same for mercies though. Besides that you can produce t1 bombers much faster than mercies.
Sure but you need just one hit with a mercy. If you use them all at ones and your opponent don't see them, the flaks might be behind the experimental.
Not at home atm but I'm gonna check the build rate / dmg / mass-costs etc. and edit the message.
@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
Why should it be impossible to fly into your opponent's base? Flying around the map edge with one mercy is way saver than doing it with 5+ Gunships. And since most players build the PGs somewhat close together one mercy is able to kill 15+ PGs in one shot - same with random engies being around while e.g. supporting a navy or air HQ.
Especially in teamgames when rushing t2 air because <1700 ranked games tend to underbuild intis anyway, so there's nothing really to stop 1-2 mercies completely raping your base.very limited fuel and far too little life to reliably get a mercy into the enemy base. Don't think you will see it except for some rare cases.
The fuel is enough for most maps. I mean ofc you won't be able to fly from one corner of a 20x20 map to the other one, but it's definitely possible on most maps
@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
Those are things which have to be fixed of course, however it's not really a reason against changing the mercies, if that's what you intented. If you simply wanted to mention it,
It just means that someone has to solve the problem if we want to change the mercy in such a way.
Yeah I don't disagree with that take, but the priority is in just checking the stats for now as Spikey mentioned
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@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@arma473 said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@strife said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
Halve or third the damage a ACU gets from the Mercy
Gross
Imagine a new-ish player investing big resources into a mercy snipe, getting the connections, and then the enemy player walks off with less than fatal damage
And he ends up losing the game because he invested in a failed attack
All because the first player didn't know there was a special rule for how mercies damage ACUs
I mean tbf it's the same with some other mechanics. E.g. the Overcharge dealing less dmg against ACU and buildings, so that would happen one time and never again. Adding a short explanation in description is a possibility as well
Terrible logic. You minimize exceptions in good game design.
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@ftxcommando said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@arma473 said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@strife said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
Halve or third the damage a ACU gets from the Mercy
Gross
Imagine a new-ish player investing big resources into a mercy snipe, getting the connections, and then the enemy player walks off with less than fatal damage
And he ends up losing the game because he invested in a failed attack
All because the first player didn't know there was a special rule for how mercies damage ACUs
I mean tbf it's the same with some other mechanics. E.g. the Overcharge dealing less dmg against ACU and buildings, so that would happen one time and never again. Adding a short explanation in description is a possibility as well
Terrible logic. You minimize exceptions in good game design.
It doesn't really matter as long as they're easy to remember. E.g. the opposite of StarCraft where it takes a good amount of time to learn the counterunits to specific stuff.
Assuming the mercies do reduced dmg to the ACU is an exception to the mechanic, but it's not something you only remember after trying that for 10 games in a row. Worst case put it into the loading-screen such as the OC-stuff. -
It does matter. Each exception is increasing complexity and onboarding cost for new users. You need to seriously look at whether an exception carries justifiable merits for the game’s health to warrant being included. Such an exception for mercy does not. It’s just there to enable lazy game design/balance.
It’s not “ah ok mercy just randomly does 33% the damage against ACUs” it’s “ah ok, time to check if every other unit in the game lies to me”
Like revert beetle to what it was and make it do 25% damage to ACUs.
Make notha do 40% damage to ACUs and buff the aoe so it’s more intuitive to snipe with it. But those damage differences aren’t how things like notha get balanced because it’s unintuitive to randomly introduce armor like that unless it becomes a core game mechanic. It’s only currently in the game to prevent totally toxic unintended interactions against asf or ACU as you mentioned for example. You don’t intuitively think to groundfire czar against asf but you do intuitively think to use the aeon magic snipe missile against the autowin game target.
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The only thing I care about here is the visual effect. Leave it alone if possible.
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@melanol There will have to be some change to make it clearly an AOE weapon. But I am leaning in the direction of making it look as close to the original as possible.
@ftxcommando said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
It does matter. Each exception is increasing complexity and onboarding cost for new users. You need to seriously look at whether an exception carries justifiable merits for the game’s health to warrant being included. Such an exception for mercy does not. It’s just there to enable lazy game design/balance.
I agree, non-intuitive changes should be made very carefully and only when no other option is available.
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@FtXCommando It's not part of the key mechanics of the game though. If it's something you'd see each rounds, then I'd completely argue. Taking StarCraft or AoE as an example where literally every unit you use has special / hidden stats.
However if a game only has like 1-3 of these units which also don't have special stats towards literally every other unit (e.g. let's say a multiplier against any arty or tanks or even faction-specific stuff), then I'd say it's definitely an okay-ish thing to do.
If you're referring to complexity, then why did the loyas get that extra ability in the first place? It also just increased complexity and Loyas get used in way more games than mercies. In addition to that I'm 100% sure there were definitely some noobs selecting multiple loyas and then wondering why they just exploded without shooting/killing anything.Inactive.
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@spikeynoob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
I agree, non-intuitive changes should be made very carefully and only when no other option is available.
Loyas :imfine:
Inactive.
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@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@spikeynoob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
I agree, non-intuitive changes should be made very carefully and only when no other option is available.
Loyas :imfine:
IMO an added ability is different from straight up adding exceptions in how much damage a weapon does based on the target. I think it works out for the OC cus its a unique weapon, but to add to 1 random other unit is unclear.
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@indexlibrorum said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@spikeynoob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
cus its a unique weapon
Unlike, say, the mercy.
You are missing the point. Mercy is a missile supposed to deal damage. So you are always expecting it to deal the same amount of damage no matter what it hits.
Loyas death ability is nothing more than an add on to an already decent unit. A bonus if you will so, that's not necessary for unit to perform it's job properly. After all it's still a decent raiding platform even if you take the EMP away from it and just buff it's damage a little bit.
Meanwhile mercy have one task, blow up and deal damage. It dealing different damage to different units is simply bad design prone to frustrating people and having them drop the game due to useless hidden mechanics.
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@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
@FtXCommando It's not part of the key mechanics of the game though. If it's something you'd see each rounds, then I'd completely argue. Taking StarCraft or AoE as an example where literally every unit you use has special / hidden stats.
However if a game only has like 1-3 of these units which also don't have special stats towards literally every other unit (e.g. let's say a multiplier against any arty or tanks or even faction-specific stuff), then I'd say it's definitely an okay-ish thing to do.
If you're referring to complexity, then why did the loyas get that extra ability in the first place? It also just increased complexity and Loyas get used in way more games than mercies. In addition to that I'm 100% sure there were definitely some noobs selecting multiple loyas and then wondering why they just exploded without shooting/killing anything.Those games are already built upon the fact that there are many different multipliers and strengths when facing different units. FAF is not. There is also the fact that most of those mutipliers are rather obvious in games like total war etc.
Meanwhile making mercy, the snipe missile perfected, deal less damage to the most important snipe target in the game is simply abysmal from the design standpoint. A unit that is supposed to be sniping important targets is not working against the most important target...
Also refer to my other post aimed at Prohibitorum.
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@sladow-noob said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
Loyas :imfine:
I didn't like adding a manual ability to the loyalist. It seemed like a change that was not justified enough. I fail to see the problem in balancing the loyalist where all other solutions are so inferior that it is justified to add a special ability to it. Also you are still using other bandaids to justify more bandaids.
The czar-asf interaction could sneakily pull it off because the beam is doing continuous damage and nobody calculates how much damage it should do to a plane passing through. In fact I think nobody would even notice the special armor if it wasn't mentioned. For big one-time damage people do make calculations how many units they need. So armor changes are super obvious there.
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A unit getting an ability is not damage applying differently randomly. Nothing in the rules set out in every other interaction of the game says a unit can’t have an ability. 99% of the game’s interactions say damage is applied uniformly.
OC is not “ok” because it’s a unique weapon. It’s “ok” because OC is what enables your ACU to leave your base beyond t1 stage. Having the game end based on who got to land the first OC and do 15k damage to an ACU is stupid gameplay. Same for ACU nuke doing 10k or whatever damage to another ACU. The exceptions exist because systems like OC or ACU nuke give positive utility that warrant the exception. Making an exception so Aeon gets some jank snipe unit when they already have the best t2 gunship for single entity targets is just not even in the false equivalency ballpark.
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@xiaomao said in Mercy Change - Not ready yet:
You are missing the point. Mercy is a missile supposed to deal damage. So you are always expecting it to deal the same amount of damage no matter what it hits.
You missed mine; I was referring to OC: a unique weapon supposed to deal damage but for good reasons nerfed in specific usecases.
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Well, mb then. The post seemed rather sarcastic.
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Where were all these snipe unit defenders when beetles were nerfed to what they are now
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@mazornoob I wasn't there when it was nerved, but I'd probably have argued against the nerfs.
Units being nerfed into the ground to the point that they are not used anymore is an indication of poor balancing.
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@spikeynoob the shield but is the same for the t2 ary and has been there for years
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People should learn the difference between nerfed and rebalanced
