4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List
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I generally dislike maps that are either too big and thus result in long or boring games, guncom rushes brawls, or maps that put one player in a spot that is more crucial to winning than the others and thus cause you to rely more on randomly getting a good player in that spot.
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@eternal said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
Oooooooooooh, we rate maps? Not our skills? XDDDDDDDDDDD
Yeah, rate how much you enjoy the maps.
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@blodir
didin't find the share button kappa so i am gonna go down with a reply -
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4v4 TMM: 1850
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Gee, poor old Bermuda Locket !
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Bermuda locket is a perfectly fine map for 1v1 but it is not ideal for 4v4 at all
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Rating 1900
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every game that i've had on Saskiya has been a treat! rating ~1700
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@blodir
rating: 1083 -
Rating ~1300 -
@blodir
1063 in 4v4 TMM, QueueSlaving is hard work.
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2304, havent played syrtis assault but i placed it where i'd put regular syrtis major
honestly looking at all these tierlists, i dont think they're helping find what maps are good. the variety in responses is way too big. there's only a few maps that are considered shit by many, and most maps that are S+ for some are in "would rather draw" for others
there's always gonna be someone suffering
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Bigger problem is the typical forum problem: look at the ratings of who responds.
The ones “indisputably” in trash tiers are maps put in the low rated pools and we got a universal agreement that high level players don’t like them, but that doesn’t really give us anything.
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@blodir
Rating: 1415
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1730 rating
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@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
honestly looking at all these tierlists, i dont think they're helping find what maps are good. the variety in responses is way too big. there's only a few maps that are considered shit by many, and most maps that are S+ for some are in "would rather draw" for others
there's always gonna be someone suffering
Bully, I think you are right. Blodir recently joined the TMM team and is looking to help, so he is taking on 4v4 pool next month.
I should let him explain his methods but from my POV it is going to help us see where preferences lie and how to move forward.
It would have been nice to show the whole 4v4 map list (here for reference) so everyone knows what we have to use at our disposal when we create the matchmaker pools.
My suspicion is that folks would change their ratings if they saw the entire list, but who knows! Hopefully this helps.
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@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
2304, havent played syrtis assault but i placed it where i'd put regular syrtis major
honestly looking at all these tierlists, i dont think they're helping find what maps are good. the variety in responses is way too big. there's only a few maps that are considered shit by many, and most maps that are S+ for some are in "would rather draw" for others
there's always gonna be someone suffering
I find the info valuable. Eg. I have never played or Virmire, but there's some clear trends 1. high rating players on average are biased toward 20x20 maps over 10x10 and 2. yet virmire ranks consistently lowly compared to other 20x20 navy maps! For instance there's a night and day difference between virmire and metir.
Yes there's variance and indeed you can't please everyone, but patterns do emerge, based on which the map pool can be optimized.
Of course there are other factors too. For instance I think it's fair to give a small bias for top player's (yudi, pepsi, farms etc) map preferences. I believe a lot of the variety in preferences emerges from a lack of knowledge. Maybe a map that was rated highly has potential for unfun/imba/etc strategies that the reviewer didn't take into account as they may not have experienced such before. Perhaps they experience such a strategy in their next game and their view of the map is turned upside down. A top player may be able to catch problems before even playing the map.
Regardless, I still think that hearing player opinions is valuable: How complex should map geometry be? How much asymmetry between opposing slots is acceptable? How long should a game last? How much variance should there be in game length? What distances between players allow lower rating players to easily interact with their opponent? Are there visual aesthetics bad enough to be unacceptable? How much mex/reclaim is overwhelming for a new player, or does it matter at all? Do new players prefer turtly maps as astro/gap would suggest? It's difficult for a person (even a very experienced one) to give a satisfying answer to most of these questions when asked directly, but patterns can be inferred from analysis of data.
Games look very different and are certainly experienced very differently by players in different rating brackets. The obvious example would be a legendary cobalt valley game where a 600 rated player built a massfab farm in the corner of the map. But the effect exists more subtly than that too. For example back in 2014 I recall loving maps like canis and pyramid. Back then those maps were the high rating teamgame maps. So I can totally understand many players in the 1500+ bracket appreciating these maps, even though these days (as the respective tierlists show) players like me, yudi, farms, pepsi generally preferring larger maps with way more mex than canis. With some other rating brackets I'm a bit less knowledgeable about. What kind of map makes a good 1100 average game for instance?
General patterns can be inferred from the data of player preferences through thoughtful analysis. In the end it always comes down to a lot of choice from the part of whoever creates the map pool, but that doesn't mean their thought process can't be informed by the data.
Btw for what it's worth, for the most part the tierlists have so far been pretty much as expected. Perhaps the most interesting discovery for me has been the popularity of falcon stone river.
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This forum itself highlights the issue. Any map is a battlefield. The only thing that's needed is good rotation, and not the same 4 maps rotating every month because on top of that at least one will be Adaptive Point of Reason (Great map), or Seraphim Glaciers (Not the best 4v4 map).