Is It Me, Or Has T3 Artillery Become OP

@maudlin27 Yes this is my most recent game, and Im playing with the M27 AI. This AI always builds T3 artillery and is very aggressive, thats why I have a turtle style. Its more efficient to build static defenses against all their spam. Ive played with this AI several times, I like it, its quite challenging, but my issue is that the artillery is so devastating compared to how it used to be. Anyway Its not a perfect AI though, as my AI team mates tend to neglect defenses and crumble quickly when their units get wiped out, meanwhile I try to help them out by building some turrets for them. I do send experimentals to try and hit their bases, but the the AI is quick to respond with crapton of bombers and gunships to take them out. Its a very good AI, probably the best, and Ive tried nearly all of them over the years. I usually fair better if I put myself on the front line. But yea... the artillery. A T3 is wrecking my base like a mavor. Doesnt seem balanced to me.

Also, @Jip, Im not a competitive player nor do i have interest in becoming one. I just like playing against the AI for fun and be able to pause the game anytime I wish.

I'm not stating you should be. I'm trying to explain what the status quo is at FAF. My advice to try out LOUD still stands, they are a PvE community that is in general casual.

No I dont care to try a different approach. I like FAF. I just dont like what has been done to artillery since the last time I played. I also just realized bricks have been nerfed as well. I dont know why though. Instead of just telling me to cope or go somewhere else, why not answer my question as to why they were changed. Because I thought they were just fine.

You can always make your own balance mod. You can learn more about that here, which is written by Balthazar.

Instead of just telling me to cope or go somewhere else, why not answer my question as to why they were changed. Because I thought they were just fine.

I didn't tell you to cope. I merely tried to explain the status quo of FAF. I don't know the ins and outs of balance changes by heart. You could try searching it here: http://patchnotes.faforever.com/

I don't agree with Teralitha's attitude but I do agree T3 arty seems a bit too powerful now. Especially as a cybran player it just seems that even with many engineers and hives assisting, t3 arty seems undefensible. To be honest in years past it never seemed to me like T3 arty was actually a game ender - a major nuisance probably but it could be countered somewhat comfortably.

As far as I'm aware T3 arti haven't been changed since I've been playing (coming up to 2 years now I think), but I can't speak to before that. In terms of M27 always building T3 arti, it'll largely be down to what its opponents do - it's meant to get T3 arti if dealing with someone who is turtling heavily and/or in the late game, but you can vary the setup to vary the chances. For example, just play against 1 M27AI (if you're against multiple then one of them is more likely to try and eco and rush a t3 arti), or a map where navy plays a bigger role. On maps with a chokepoint (assuming 1 M27AI per chokepoint such as 2v2 on Fields of Isis) it's also likely to invest resources into turtling which in turn can delay when it gets the arti.

In terms of T3 arti being strong though, it's only on certain maps where I'd see it as strong (dual gap, astro and similar). Almost every 4v4 TMM I've played (I'm around 1k rank so have had games with players from negative rank to 2k rank in them from time to time) it's ended before getting to the stage of game where T3 arti would have been effective because of how big an investment it is - i.e. it's generally far better to invest that same mass into navy (on a naval map) or on a land experimental, even though team games by their nature favour ecoing more (since most teammates will help defend an attack but won't support an attack, meaning if you try and be aggressive you often end up fighting more than one player at once).

@teralitha lol go answer your question yourself? Are you paying for anyone to spend their time answering your questions? Don't expect people to help you if you are this rude.

T3 arty is the closest thing to garbage most of the time. T3 Shields counter it hard and its an insane investment. someone could make 1 t3 arty and you could make 2 experimentals and just destroy their whole base before the arty is done.

You could get t3 arty of your own

@femboy I would like disagree to it being garbage. Its just the case where it is truly good decision is seen past 2 or 3 t4s.

So, Im looking at one of my own replays and I noticed something. One of my AI team is getting hit by arty but their shields were tanking it no problem. Serphim I believe. But when arty was hitting my base, I was getting wrecked. I play cybran. So... perhaps its not the arty. Maybe my shields just suck ass.

Cyb do and are expensive per HP, make sure you are getting the full upgrade to the sheilds

Yes I always fully upgrade them. I watched this serphim base for awhile. They had just 5 heavy shields covering their whole base and it wasnt until later when the enemy had 3 arties and a novax hitting them when their base finally cracked. Damn... my cybran shields must be really garbage....

on 4v4, it is a common practice to share techs in order to get the "best from each cake". Indeed Cybran sucks with shielding but has various other (mostly offensive) stength.

@teralitha Did the AIs shields touch each other?
Because once your shields touch, the damage one shield takes gets partially transferred to the other shields. That's also why you would need to toggle shields to survive.
Shield overspill is also probably the T3 arty buff you are feeling, as T3 arties were never buffed in FAF.

For the game to be balanced the player that spends more mass (wisely -- not just on AA, for example) wins. So if your opponent spends x amount of mass, and the game is balanced, you should have to counter it with x amount of mass.

T3 arty costs 70k mass. A T3 shield costs 2.4k mass. So you should need 70/2.4 = 30 T3 shields to counter a T3 arty.

Unless you want to unbalance the game?

Honestly, by the time your opponent has spent 70k mass, if you HAVEN'T build something comparable (an arty of your own, an experimental (or 2 -- a fatty costs only 28k), etc), you SHOULD lose.

@pearl12 interesting theory, but it doesnt work in practice. 5 (seraphim) shields from what I just saw are enough to withstand up to 2 arty barrages plus a novax. So your 70k mass to 2.4k x 5 mass mathematics doesnt work like you think it does. You seem to have forgotten that shields need alot of energy to counter the damage. Syou also need to spend time and mass to build more generators as well.

Yea the whole 'shield overspill' theory sounds like nonsense to me(At least the way you are describing it). I see what Ive seen and I told you what im seeing. I know shields overlap, thats why I build several in close proximity. Its a simple concept really. When one shield fails another one stops the rest of the damage if it can. And it works, for some factions... apparently not cybran.

@pearl12 But that would mean the attacker always wins, as you would need to counter everything he does perfectly to just go out even.
If you have a counter for his strategy you should be winning.

@teralitha said in Is It Me, Or Has T3 Artillery Become OP:

When one shield fails another one stops the rest of the damage if it can.

Yes, but overspill means that if the arty does 1k damage to one of your shields, ALL shields touching that shield also take 150 damage ON TOP. (and shields touching those would take 23 damage)

So if your shields are touching one another you are increasing the damage the arty does by 15% per shield.

This was done because a heavily shielded base in vanilla was to unbreakable due to shields automatically switching in/out once one shield goes down.

The T3 arties weren't buffed, they were nerfed alongside other late-game units in terms of BT (it takes longer to construct them)

@Teralitha, which is why it doesn't take 30 shields, it takes less than that, plus power.

EDIT: Since I'm assuming you won't do the math, 70k mass would get you 3 T3 pgens (3240 mass each giving you 7.5k power) and 25 T3 shields (needing exactly 7.5k power)

So... my point still stands. Unless you had 25 T3 shields, and still lost. Did you?

@Nex, yes, the attacker always wins. Otherwise FAF would be a turtlefest—there would be no point in attacking. People would just shield creep. Which would be quite funny, I'd love to see a map covered in shields, but probably only funny watching it when someone else does it, and only the first time.

@pearl12 said in Is It Me, Or Has T3 Artillery Become OP:

yes, the attacker always wins.

No if that were the case, then the player building the first tank would win every game, as the defender would have to invest the same amount of mass to counter the tank and go out even only if he made the perfect decision and have no way of ever coming back from a failure. Which would mean the only way to ever win would be to attack and completely ignore your opponents attacks, as there is nothing to gain from defending against those.

If you make the right decision/counter at the right time you will come out on top, no matter if you are the attacker or you are the defender. Otherwise there would be not strategic decision to make as an attacker, as everything you do would at most be even for the defender.