Full-Share Cannot Avoid Reality of Math
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Yes. They're terrible maps for anything larger than 2v2.
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Increasing T1 mex to T2 triples the mass (200% increase). Putting storages around a T2 mex boosts the mass by 50% (50% increase). Increasing T2 to T3 triples the mass again (200% increase).
So if you just look at the succession of stages, it might look like an exponential increase in income.
But that ignores that the cost also scales. In fact, the cost scales faster than the benefit. If you just compare the cost to benefit, it scales linearly (slightly decreasing).
If you take into account that as you upgrade mexes, you increase your mass income, so you have more mass to invest, then you will see that it scales in a quadratic manner.
If you can afford to invest a constant amount of mass into upgrading mexes, let's say 8 mass/second, and you invest any new mass you get from upgraded mexes into making more weapons to fight the enemy, then you will scale linearly.
If you invest all of your income into eco, and skip making weapons, then you will scale quadratically.
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I will only talk about Setons because that is the only map I play. There are some players who are 1600 (Gilobot) who will absolutely NOT double base because they feel it weakens their micro and their eco efficiency. Gilobot would rather ctrl k his commander than manage two bases. I have trouble managing two bases as well. The only time your argument is relevant is when a 1200 inherits the base of a 500. The 1200 is still going to have less eco efficiency but their eco efficiency will still be better than the 500 when all is said and done.
You claim that Setons is just a map with 4 lanes that rarely interact with each other. This is bullshit. Beach should always walk to mid to scoop mass. The mid player should ALWAYS be making naval units by 15 minutes. And everybody should be making drops
or bombers or t2 fighter bombers or torps throughout the game.If you are sad because you "Won your lane" on setons but your teammates lost then you are a moron. You don't get rating on setons by "winning your lane". You get rating by winning THE GAME. If your teammate is losing his lane don't just ctrl k and give up. Send him torp bombers or drop his opponent or build a nuke. Or God forbid you can even give him your own mexes or pgens if he is low on resources. This is a team game after all. You win or lose as a team.
You claim that suiciding your com as mid and gifting eco to your air player is a good strategy on setons. I don't think you understand the micro involved to build bases. The air player should be ctrl king their t2 mexes. They need to be scouting CONSTANTLY and watching their scouts as they pass over the enemy. They need to be watching for enemy transports, bombers, strats, and proxy bases. They need to scout for nukes, game ender, any upgrading cybran commanders (this could be telemazer).
You seem to think that air slot is a dummy slot that takes no skill. This is wrong. Remember what I said earlier. Front player needs to help beach. Well if you are air player and you inherited front base then you need to make navy to help beach because the other front player will be making navy to help his beach. Now you have to micro navy on top of managing two ecos.
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average no share player
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@arma473 Wrong. Economy scales exponentially. Just set up the differential equation and solve it.
But I don't quite get how the math is helping here at proving a point. Losing a base is setting you back quite a bit in time if you see the economy as an exponential function of time. It sets you even more back, because you have to spend all your mass into units afterwards to close the huge gap in the front line.
@Pure
I kinda see your point. When I was 1.2k rated I loved to play wonder and the air player meta was to go for a t2 air snipe (back in 2019). Nearly every game was decided via t2 air snipe in combination with an acu push. I quite enjoyed that type of game play back then. It felt like action! But the problem is that this tactic stays the meta even with higher rated players. It is so strong it kills nearly every other tactic, or the game just devolves even harder into an eco/ turtle fest.
The reason why t2 air snipes are so strong is because they are comparatively cheap. This is due to them being balanced around 1v1, where we want them to be a viable comeback strategy and 1v1s are generally played on a way tighter margin in terms of how much you can afford besides land units.
So the thing is we want to have more viable strategies in team games and most FAF players prefer the death of a thousand slices as Blodir would say. We do not want every game to be immediately decided by one mispositioned ACU.
The one thing I really dislike about full share game is when you intentionally leave a lower rated player alive to not give a stronger player the double base. This is only viable when the rating difference is quite significant (more then 500 I would say). Otherwise you really notice when a team is down a player, at least in the higher rated lobbies. In the lower rated Lobbies this isn't that obvious because the effect of being down a player is just drowned in the noise of varying player performance. -
So the thing is we want to have more viable strategies in team games and most FAF players prefer the death of a thousand slices as Blodir would say. We do not want every game to be immediately decided by one mispositioned ACU.
The one thing I really dislike about full share game is when you intentionally leave a lower rated player alive to not give a stronger player the double base. This is only viable when the rating difference is quite significant (more then 500 I would say). Otherwise you really notice when a team is down a player, at least in the higher rated lobbies. In the lower rated Lobbies this isn't that obvious because the effect of being down a player is just drowned in the noise of varying player performance.This can easily be fixed by giving the base to the lowest rated player, instead of the highest (as it is now).
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
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That would just be annoying since the the lowest member would be then asked to give the base manually.
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@jip said in Full-Share Cannot Avoid Reality of Math:
So the thing is we want to have more viable strategies in team games and most FAF players prefer the death of a thousand slices as Blodir would say. We do not want every game to be immediately decided by one mispositioned ACU.
The one thing I really dislike about full share game is when you intentionally leave a lower rated player alive to not give a stronger player the double base. This is only viable when the rating difference is quite significant (more then 500 I would say). Otherwise you really notice when a team is down a player, at least in the higher rated lobbies. In the lower rated Lobbies this isn't that obvious because the effect of being down a player is just drowned in the noise of varying player performance.This can easily be fixed by giving the base to the lowest rated player, instead of the highest (as it is now).
That "fix" can be fixed if the lower-rated player just gives their base to the higher-rated player.
In fact, you can get the same result without an ACU dying, if the lower-rated player just gives their base at any time.
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I mean, let's be honest. The base goes to the first person willing to keep it. Be it lowest rated or highest rated. So you will often see it juggled regardless of who got it.
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@tagada said in Full-Share Cannot Avoid Reality of Math:
That would just be annoying since the the lowest member would be then asked to give the base manually.
You assume that the lowest rated player is willing to do so
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90% of circumstances base is given to dude that is next door to the guy that died.
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Depends on the ratings. Majority of the times i've seen it stays with whoever receives it (that's TMM around the 1k level).
Also if it does then have to switch from the lowest ranking to the highest ranking manually, that takes up time and attention, both meaning there's a longer period of that base doing nothing, and the player it goes to doing much less (and hence more of a benefit/less of a penalty to killing the enemy ACU).
It would at least slightly reduce the incentive to leave an ACU alive when it's exposed/vulnerable to being killed. Particularly at the ranks I play at/skill variance, there's a massive difference between say a rank 500 and a rank 1k, and I am likely to cost my team the game by killing the rank 500 if they leave their ACU exposed (unless I can follow through and kill the entire base at the same time).
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How explored has that mode been where it gets given to civilians? So instead of rebuilding everything, stuff just has to be captured. Or maybe half to a player, half to civilians? Somewhere in between full and no share.
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That would be even more game ruining than no share.
Best compromise between full share and no share would be some equivalent of losing some % of units but not losing the base itself.
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@ftxcommando said in Full-Share Cannot Avoid Reality of Math:
90% of circumstances base is given to dude that is next door to the guy that died.
@Jip Wouldn't it be possible to automatically give the base to the player with the closest spawn?
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That's not desirable and just trying to artificially make full share worse by making the experience worse/more annoying for the players. If the base is received by lowest/ wrong player then he will be prompted to give the base to someone else, if he doesn't comply he will probably get pinged, the game will be stopped, the chat will be spammed and someone may even flame him. Doesn't look like a good solution to me. Also Full share promotes somewhat agressive pushes that don't need to be all iny/ coordinated with the whole team. As long as you do enough damage and disrupt your enemies even you dieing in the end isn't such a big thing. That's a good thing in my book. The main problem with full share is suiciding ACUs to kill armies (mostly small water maps where the navy can't get away from the ACU). If you try to abuse ACUs a lot and go for some combined push then you risk losing the game anyways since ACU that are clumped together can easily chain explode.
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Too many games are already ruined because of the absence of Full-Share.
This rant covered in a fake scientific flavor just is the current 'thing'; hating on Full-Share.
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I can't believe most people think the human limit of APM is like 180
