The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade)

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@brannou

I completely agree! So many late-game upgrades that don't quite fit well.

Though I would argue that the Seraphim has the other gun upgrade that goes well with Splash. Pairing both together can really strong.

Even more so when you see that with these upgrades, a Sera Com could go face-to-face with a lot of Experimentals. Not many other factions can do that.

~ Stryker

Can you send me some mass?

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Maybe vs a monkey or if you get in range of a fatboy but no, a sera commander still get destryed by experimentals

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@brannou

Of course - experimentals are experimentals. You'd be out of your mind if you try to take one head-on, But it really does depend on the situation, too. A weakened Ythotha or GC would be a good target.

Though I think This is where Billy does Shine - The range is quite useful.
Fire from afar without risking your Commander.

~ Stryker

Can you send me some mass?

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I agree with Stryker, billy lame many times 🙂

The embodiment of depression...

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@brannou said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

I feel like when i asked to buff gun spash for seraphim.

Too expensive for early game, too weak for late game

IMHO that's just balance for these things. Look at Cybran: mazer is expensive enough for your opponent to have T3 air by the time you're done. If it wasn't, it'd be OP. Same with cloak+mazer versus omni. If splash was viable before T3 land, it'd be unstoppable.

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Here's a Billy Buff suggestion; increase the maximum speed of the projectile. Maybe quite significantly.

The increase in usefulness is two-fold:

  1. targeting will be easier. Instead of reducing the damage fall-off, or increasing the max-damage radius, just make it a bit easier to put a missile where you want it.

  2. a quicker projectile will spend less time within the firing radius of TMD. If not passing directly through the centre, a faster projectile might have a better chance of passing two TMD's with some health remaining.

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@barry_whiter

increase the maximum speed of the projectile.

I honestly didn't think of that. That is actually quite smart.

Though, I believe we would still have issues with the damage AoE.
The fall-off damage is still quite high, in my opinion.

Originally, I had it at 10,000 but after seeing some tests, I think this could be toned down to 5,000 or less. This way, it would still damage units on the outside ring.

Still need to conduct more tests to have a more balanced option.

But, yeah, An increase in speed would be quite useful actually.
Thanks for the feedback. I really do like that idea.

~ Stryker

Can you send me some mass?

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Alright. I gotta point this out as it's been happening quite often when I use this upgrade...

The projectile HP of the Billy, since it has such low HP, (literally 4 HP), there is a chance that random fire will destroy it before it hits its target. I've seen a PD randomly shoot and accidentally destroy it, I've seen ASF randomly shoot and destroy it, I've seen the beam of a Monkeylord and GC kill it, and I've seen Harbs' & Brick fire kill it. Heck, I've even seen a torpedo kill it, too!

Wouldn't it be of benefit to increase the HP of the projectile drastically and increase the damage of the TMD to match?

Example:
TMD would deal 50 damage and standard missiles would have 50 hp, the damage from the TMD kills the missile in one shot - no change here.
If the Billy has 151 HP, it would still tank 3 shots with the 4th killing it.

This change would mirror the Nuke Missile HP change that was made a while back - to prevent it from being shot down by random fire as it is fired or as it is landing.


~ Stryker

Can you send me some mass?

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The projectile HP of the Billy, since it has such low HP, (literally 4 HP), there is a chance that random fire will destroy it before it hits its target. I've seen a PD randomly shoot and accidentally destroy it, I've seen ASF randomly shoot and destroy it, I've seen the beam of a Monkeylord and GC kill it, and I've seen Harbs' & Brick fire kill it. Heck, I've even seen a torpedo kill it, too!

This is happening because of an issue with patch 3741.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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@jip

This is happening because of an issue with patch 3741.

Ah, I was not aware that it is an issue.
But, could've sworn it has been happening to me since the beginning of time. Hmm.


~ Stryker

Can you send me some mass?

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Yes, it can happen if it hits a unit somehow. But not arbitrary projectiles.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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@barry_whiter said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

Here's a Billy Buff suggestion; increase the maximum speed of the projectile. Maybe quite significantly.

The increase in usefulness is two-fold:

  1. targeting will be easier. Instead of reducing the damage fall-off, or increasing the max-damage radius, just make it a bit easier to put a missile where you want it.

  2. a quicker projectile will spend less time within the firing radius of TMD. If not passing directly through the centre, a faster projectile might have a better chance of passing two TMD's with some health remaining.


I was rereading some posts and recalled this one, so, I wanted to bring more attention to this post and this specific suggestion, as this could be a meaningful change without making the projectile too strong.

At the moment, the Billy's main strength comes from the First projectile the ACU fires, as that's when the enemy doesn't expect it. Any projectiles after that have diminishing returns as the opponent has already started building more counters.
With increased speed, subsequent projectiles would be a little more viable, especially the projectiles fired from a longer range.

Though, I still want to point out some other issues, as well. Specifically the missile HP in terms of random projectiles hitting it and destroying it, fall off damage in terms of minimal damage, and the projectile cost/upgrade cost.

Any thoughts on this?


~Stryker

Can you send me some mass?

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I will look into changing the billy for the next balance patch (not the one coming soon tm) so probably in ~3 weeks

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@tagada said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

I will look into changing the billy for the next balance patch (not the one coming soon tm) so probably in ~3 weeks

Do you actually think billy is bad or is this more of a fine tuning than a buff?

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Buffing the missile speed is barely more than a qol change imo

put the xbox units in the game pls u_u

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It's not a qol since it does nothing but buff it against tmd, which are you know, the units that are supposed to counter it and buff it against big t3 armies against which it already is more than strong enough. Buffing missile speed would probably make billy OP if you ask me.

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Mostly fine tuning, maybe small buffs. My initial idea is to decrease the inner dmg while making the outer stronger but probably less AoE. Make it more reliable. Would be nice if you could change the icon to actually see it (that would be an obvious nerf and would need other adjustments ofc)

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Probably should keep the inner ring dmg high enough to snipe acus, or a loya would make you snipe yourself.

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https://replay.faforever.com/18054669

488K mass killed in a setons game average rating 1744

Billy is very good at taking opertunistic shots at high value targets (structures, armies, Also very good against landed clouds of ASF) in teamgames. On large teamgame maps there is almost always a target that is worth it to hit.