Scouts and labs should not break tree groups
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I wouldn't be opposed but I need to think about this a little more.
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That's something that only impacts sentons/selkie as those two are only a few of the maps where tree breaking can really be harmful because of how abundant the tree density is and it's really hard to prevent an aeon scout from getting through because of how large the water area is and how open the map is which opens a lot of paths and sometimes it can be very unpredictable from where they will be coming from, the mechanic isn't particularly op for 99% of the maps but the environment of the map makes it so, i don't really think that's an issue otherwise the same logic can be applied for dual gappers who constantly complain about stuff like t3arty/nuke op but most people here tend to ignore those because they use the argument that they're irrelevant for 99% of the other maps.
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Yeah, but this wouldn't really change anything for all the other maps (the LABs giving free intel to the enemy by breaking tree groups is a bug, not a feature. I wouldn't mind seeing it gone) while making it arguably better for Setons. That's not the case with nerfing Arties because of DG.
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True, i gave random example though and there may be another more specific examples but yea ure right.
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By that logic wouldn't reclaim changing because of enemy bombs without you scouting the result of the bomb hitting the reclaim also be a bug?
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Honestly I would also like this change so that I don’t break my own tree groups and therefore don’t have to path scouts and labs around unbroken forests
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@ftxcommando said in Scouts and labs should not break tree groups:
By that logic wouldn't reclaim changing because of enemy bombs without you scouting the result of the bomb hitting the reclaim also be a bug?
Technically - yes
.But that is a bug that is very difficult, if not impossible, to fix with the engine limitations.
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Is seeing a lab through the fog of war that big of a deal? From the gifs I would have to actively look at that area to be able to notice the visual differences. That means I don't do anything else in that time, which is a pretty high cost. It looks like the main visual difference comes from different LOD values, can't we align them, so the tree group looks basically the same when it got broken?
Regarding the breaking of tree groups on purpose: People complain about build orders being too OP all the time. We have a tool here to disrupt the enemy's build order, but this is now unwanted too? I would like to hear some more explanation why you want to get rid of this mechanic. Do you take issue with the fact that the unit doesn't need to shoot to do damage? I think it's a creative use of the game's mechanics to counter a greedy build order and it's one of the very few options when your own build order is inferior.
If we still want to lessen the impact of broken tree groups we could play with the mass adjustment for broken groups. That has already been done once and that way we don't have to introduce additional complexity, where some units arbitrarily break trees while others don't. Plus we can keep the nice visuals of a lab crushing trees while running through a forest.
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The way FAF uses tree groups is just a walkaround from how ugly the patrol or manual reclaim mechanics work:
-For patrol reclaim: engineer logic is fcked and for some reason they waste of lot of time to pack/unpack their claw between reclaiming multiple things.
-For manual reclaim: 1) You wouldn't click every tree manually which allows engineers to reclaim without claw unpack animation 2) FAF rejected all sorts of area reclaim and consideres it game-breaking mechanic despite such things exist in other RTS. (nobody misses stone clicking there, but i guess in FAF clicking stones is so much funnier than remaining SCFA gameplay)Instead FAF abuses attack move from factory - and that is actually a bug abuse which AFAIK didn't exist in GPG.
May be fix factory attack move and introduce proper area reclaim so people wouldn't waste half of their life clicking every stone on the map?
Some time ago it was more efficient to just break tree groups because it gave more mass, these days it better not to break trees because it is soooooooo much faster and gives more E. You have one number of trees, why do they give different amount of resources if they groupped of separated? All tree groups should automaticly break once game starts.
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May be fix factory attack move and introduce proper area reclaim so people wouldn't waste half of their life clicking every stone on the map?
As numerous people have stated in this other topic that is about area reclaim - the better players among us rarely use manual reclaim with the exception during the first few minutes of the game because there's literally nothing else to do.
At all other moments of the game it is better to use patrol or the regular attack move, as you need your apm to do your decision making on the battlefield.
Anyhow - I'm asking moderators to delete future posts that reference the area reclaim discussion in this topic. This topic is not about that, it is about scouts being visible through the fog and scouts being able to be used to seriously impact your opponents economy without firing a single shot.
You have one number of trees, why do they give different amount of resources if they groupped of separated? All tree groups should automaticly break once game starts.
See the original post, in particular:
The tree groups are a product to safe on performance. They are simply put more efficient to render
We'd destroy your fps if we'd break them all at the start
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J Jip referenced this topic on
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Is it possible to make this into a toggle for scouts (or maybe all T1?), so that they can intentionally break trees at reduced speed and otherwise they don't break them?
Makes it into an option to intentionally break trees, but makes them not break your own and because they get slowed down while doing it they become a bit less effective at it and can be more easily chased down. -
That would be possible - yes. But it feels like an interaction that doesn't fit this game. Toggling things on individual units is an apm / attention sink.
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I like the toggle with default to not break trees.
Scouts are supposed to be stealthy and not leave tracks
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Slowed down by hitting the trees kappa
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Imo a toggle would be too niche to be worth adding. I agree something should be done about being able to see trees through FoW but that should be in the form of some fix (not showing trees breaking through FoW) rather than a overly complex workaround that does not actually remove the issue.
Also a toggle makes no sense from a perspective of realism (or consistency). Ik its just a game and there is plenty of unrealistic features, but it makes no logical sense for a mech marine to be able to with the push of the button go straight through trees. I think making labs/scouts not interact with trees and leaving tree interactions the same are both valid ideas, however i think both at once would be a mistake. -
How do we feel about T1 engies also not breaking tree groups?
Feels to me like a noob trap you "just gotta know about" to avoid random e-stalls, that also doesn't really add anything to the game at higher levels.
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Tree breaking should just be fully removed from the game.
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I don't think that's needed. Using these units specifically to destroy groups of trees is relevant only on 1 map. In other cases, take into account that labs and scouts in factions are very different (aeon and seraphim for example). Player 1 (aeon) builds labs and does not break the forest on his half of the map. Player 2 (seraphim) builds tanks and breaks the forest on his side.
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I think for Setons reducing the on-water speed of the spirit would go a long way to allowing time for the other team to destroy it before it gets into all the forestry.
Any non-sera can put a lab in a transport to do so.
Otherwise you can get situation like above where player spamming flares keeps their tree groups intact and the player making tanks breaks theirs.
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Arguing about the balance of units/mechanics on only a single map is pretty irrelevant imo.
Still, breaking trees in the early game is just an unintuitive feel bad mechanic all around, so why keep it?
