Another Novax conversation
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I’d probably aim for making its combat aspect revolve around being a support tool. Have it have the ability to stun either land or air units under it as some EMP satellite. Introduce the ability to make units move slower as the satellite disrupts communication in its area with the ACU. Mobile shields no longer work. Who knows.
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@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
Imagine if the Soothsayer had a monkeylord laser on top of it that could target anything in its visual radius and cost 30k mass.
You do realize that a novax has the same dps of 10 mantis, not a ML?
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@TheWeakie I'm not aware of exact stats I'm just working from a conceptual point of view so yeah I may have exaggerated the comparison but my point is the same.
I guess we just always get back to having to deal with what the Novax is and move on? Why is it even in the game? Is it strictly due to lore? What about just removing it all together?
I dont know. Same result as any Novax conversation lol
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@FtXCommando said in Another Novax conversation:
I’d probably aim for making its combat aspect revolve around being a support tool. Have it have the ability to stun either land or air units under it as some EMP satellite. Introduce the ability to make units move slower as the satellite disrupts communication in its area with the ACU. Mobile shields no longer work. Who knows.
That actually seems pretty good IMO...if it stunned a pgen and turned it off rather than killing it and causing a chain reaction...I think the EMP effect makes the most sense but I have a 1.2k brain so anything seems good to me lol
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@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
@Salz Gives the UEF faction auto win late game.
Makes one arty as powerful as 3 or more.
I have now tested it with all shields.
Yes, double shield damage would be too much.Nevertheless, I am sticking to my idea. If you want to change the Novax, you need to do something more radical than just adding some energy consumption or reducing the base damage.
"This makes the Novax a support unit (scouting / shield disabling / stall effect).
This means that a Novax only becomes dangerous if you also have a T3 Arty nearby, for example, and the investment costs for effective use of a Novax increase accordingly, as the Novax is not dangerous without regular damage units."But the creator of the topic seems to have a general problem with the Novax and I don't think any suggestion will satisfy him except the complete removal of the unit.
And that brings us back to the question of whether we should just leave everything as it is. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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@Salz the only thing that would satisfy me from all of this would be an actual active program developed to doing something about the Novax involving the people that would actually have to do it me not being one of them because I agree with you something dramatic needs to be changed not just cost changes.
My only point in making this article was to try and spurn that change not to get any specific result because it does seem like the majority of players have a problem with the unit as is.
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I dont think any drastic changes are required
Personaly I like the suggestion made by silent bug, Reduce dps the further the sat travels from the station, stronger for defense weaker for attack.
Energy costs just makes sense, radar and omni both have energy drain so why is the novax the exception?
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@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
Energy costs just makes sense, radar and omni both have energy drain so why is the novax the exception?
From a gameplay perspective radar/omni only have an energy drain because they can skip tech tiers through upgrades. Putting the mass cost of the radar into the form of energy upkeep encourages teching up to appropriate pgen efficiency levels before being able to build a high-tech radar independently of engineer tech at the front.
There is also an additional point that expendable units with an energy upkeep are expensive to build but cheap to replace. Radars/omnis are killed rather often for a structure, especially T1 and T2 radars.Novax does not fit into either design idea because it is not upgradeable from anything and never gets destroyed since it is artillery. The only thing upkeep would do for a Novax is punish energy stalls (not like this game gives many opportunities for an enemy to do that), increase its effective mass cost, and make it slightly harder to defend since there is another pgen somewhere on the map.
I will concede that thematically it may make sense, but balance-wise if you add energy upkeep to Novax it would simply get a cost reduction. I say "may make sense" because on one side there's arty and intel energy drain, but on the other hand mobile units don't have intel (but not counterintel) or weapon energy upkeep.
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@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
I agree with you something dramatic needs to be changed not just cost changes.
I've discussed this idea last year over voice, and I'll post it here. It has three parts. The goal is to actually utilize the satellite layer. This layer exists in the game, but there's not much going on there. Ideally these satellites become part of armies, like any other mobile unit. To support the Fatboy - from above!
Not a ground station, but a factory
At the moment you need an additional ground station for each satellite. This is a little bit cumbersome. Both from a programmers perspective (the satellite is not shared when your defeated - it is rebuilt at the station). As I think it thematically lacks a bit.
Proposal: turn it into a factory. Allow it to pump satellites, like a regular factory.
Multiple type of satellites
Instead of just having one satellite, there will be three:
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- A scout satellite. Relatively cheap and provides various types of intel. Enables the UEF to have Omni intel on-site to counter stealth and cloak, for example.
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- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors
. By being missile-based, the satellite is easier to counter:
- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors
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- It makes the satellite worse against mobile armies. Just like mobile missile launchers.
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- It makes the satellite unusable against naval armies, as they are usually packed with mobile TMD.
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- You don't need to built shields everywhere, likely just 2 TMDs at each location.
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- A laser-based satellite. This would be similar to the current satellite, except that it's designed to bust shields. The beam is continuous. For its costs, it will deal relatively low damage to non-shielded units (think 1/4th). And it will deal about half the amount of damage against shields as the current Novax does. But then of course continuous.
All satellites will have an energy upkeep. The rational of @Nomander that upkeep is unusual for mobile units is correct. But given that these are the only units on the satellite layer, they can be their own niche. They are essentially flying buildings anyway. All weapons of the satellites also have upkeep to fire, just like for example stationary artillery and the Ravager do.
When a player runs out of power the satellites simply stop firing because of the weapon upkeep. When a player loses the last Novax center all satellites become uncontrollable and unelectable. They start losing health (and visually: orbit). When their health drops to 0, they crash to the ground.
Allow SMDs to intercept satellites (manually)
This idea is not new. It's used in LOUD. I like it thematically. It provides the player with an option to immediately counter a satellite if the player thinks it's necessary. For example, countering the laser-based satellite would be a no brainer if you are also being shelled by artillery.
Now, I don't talk about costs here because that's all too soon to discuss. It's the idea - the theme and the experience of it, is what this proposal is about. And of course the positioning of the units in the roster, what are their purpose and how do they remain balanced mechanically?
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
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@Jip really cool info.
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@Dorset There's a lot possible in this game. Of course, not everything. But if as long as you don't draw outside the lines then all of this wouldn't even be much work.
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@Jip Well I have zero skills or knowhow to be able to offer any assistance but I am sure happy that we have people who know how and are willing. I looked at a simple log file trying to troubleshoot my crashing and my brain nearly exploded from whatever the hell I read on that notepad lol
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@Jip I like this idea, and FWIW, using SMD to kill a satellite also exists in BlackOps with the 'Artemis' Aeon Experimental (nuke) Satellite.
Which is great, although the fact that SMD can shoot down the Artemis and not the Novax currently is... weird.
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@Jip said in Another Novax conversation:
@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
I agree with you something dramatic needs to be changed not just cost changes.
I've discussed this idea last year over voice, and I'll post it here. It has three parts. The goal is to actually utilize the satellite layer. This layer exists in the game, but there's not much going on there. Ideally these satellites become part of armies, like any other mobile unit. To support the Fatboy - from above!
Not a ground station, but a factory
At the moment you need an additional ground station for each satellite. This is a little bit cumbersome. Both from a programmers perspective (the satellite is not shared when your defeated - it is rebuilt at the station). As I think it thematically lacks a bit.
Proposal: turn it into a factory. Allow it to pump satellites, like a regular factory.
Multiple type of satellites
Instead of just having one satellite, there will be three:
-
- A scout satellite. Relatively cheap and provides various types of intel. Enables the UEF to have Omni intel on-site to counter stealth and cloak, for example.
-
- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors . By being missile-based, the satellite is easier to counter:
- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors
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- It makes the satellite worse against mobile armies. Just like mobile missile launchers.
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- It makes the satellite unusable against naval armies, as they are usually packed with mobile TMD.
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- You don't need to built shields everywhere, likely just 2 TMDs at each location.
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- A laser-based satellite. This would be similar to the current satellite, except that it's designed to bust shields. The beam is continuous. For its costs, it will deal relatively low damage to non-shielded units (think 1/4th). And it will deal about half the amount of damage against shields as the current Novax does. But then of course continuous.
All satellites will have an energy upkeep. The rational of @Nomander that upkeep is unusual for mobile units is correct. But given that these are the only units on the satellite layer, they can be their own niche. They are essentially flying buildings anyway. All weapons of the satellites also have upkeep to fire, just like for example stationary artillery and the Ravager do.
When a player runs out of power the satellites simply stop firing because of the weapon upkeep. When a player loses the last Novax center all satellites become uncontrollable and unelectable. They start losing health (and visually: orbit). When their health drops to 0, they crash to the ground.
Allow SMDs to intercept satellites (manually)
This idea is not new. It's used in LOUD. I like it thematically. It provides the player with an option to immediately counter a satellite if the player thinks it's necessary. For example, countering the laser-based satellite would be a no brainer if you are also being shelled by artillery.
Now, I don't talk about costs here because that's all too soon to discuss. It's the idea - the theme and the experience of it, is what this proposal is about. And of course the positioning of the units in the roster, what are their purpose and how do they remain balanced mechanically?
Yes please
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@Jip said in Another Novax conversation:
A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors . By being missile-based, the satellite is easier to counter:
It makes the satellite worse against mobile armies. Just like mobile missile launchers.
It makes the satellite unusable against naval armies, as they are usually packed with mobile TMD.
You don't need to built shields everywhere, likely just 2 TMDs at each location.Imo it probably makes more sense to make it similar to this http://faforever.github.io/spooky-db/#/XNL0403. Firing an artillery barage of rockets that do decent AoE so it's usefull against armies (but is possible to be microed against it because i assume the missiles take some time to arrive due to travel time). That will also make it overcome being useless against atleast smaller quantities of navy.
I really like the idea of building different kinds of sats though.
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I Like the idea of making the novax a factory with different types of sats.
The only thing I would say is I dont like the idea of extra damage to shields, I believe it would give the uef too large of an advantage in arty war type scenarios/late game, Im my mind energy weapons like beams should do less damage to shields as they are also energy based.
UEF already has the mavor which just deletes shields anyway.
I actually tried creating the sat missile variant and it looks pretty sweet, kinda reminds me of space invaders as it moves around droping projectiles.
I gave it the same firing sequence of the uef cruiser for testing.Removing the firing sound creates the effect of it being in orbit too.
The only thing that looks strange is the tmd, as the sat is almost directly over the target, tmd immediately engages the projectiles as soon as its fired making it seem like either the sat is not very high up or the tmd can reach orbit.
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How about a sat that projects a shield around an area
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The SAT layer is a nice idea from futurist stand point (what kind of future wouldn't have intel Sats) but an ammunition based orbital thing- kinda would ruin some of the sense of 'realism' for me. But that's just me.
@Jip said in Another Novax conversation:
Allow SMDs to intercept satellites (manually)
This idea is not new. It's used in LOUD. I like it thematically. It provides the player with an option to immediately counter a satellite if the player thinks it's necessary. For example, countering the laser-based satellite would be a no brainer if you are also being shelled by artillery.
Looking forward to things if this goes up for testing... fingers crossed
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I think novaxes are relatively fine as they are, Maybe a slight balance change, but you have to remember a novax is 36k mass iirc, 2 of them costing about the same price of a t3 arty +/- 2k mass, but the damage output is nowhere near t3 arty, yeh arty doesn't have the precision of a novax, but a novax doesn't have the damage of an arty, it takes 2-3 artys of novaxes to be able to penetrate anything heavily shielded, and at that point you could have a Game Ender up.
Yes maybe there could be a way to shoot down novaxes, but the day that happens i guarantee the novax will essentially be the next mercy, and if your opponent has time to build a novax and not get punished that is you not doing your job.
Maybe something could be done about the damage, but if your nerfing damage you have to give it something else, someone mentioned more aoe, but then would that give it shield spill at that point which would arguably be even better than it is now, or then you have to think "oh shit, they can hit two pgens at the same time" which will kill your grid faster, makes targeting engies much more worth, etc, etc...
Something as simple as a damage nerf or way to shoot it down wouldn't work.
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@CM_Nicholas said in Another Novax conversation:
Maybe something could be done about the damage, but if your nerfing damage you have to give it something else, someone mentioned more aoe, but then would that give it shield spill at that point which would arguably be even better than it is now, or then you have to think "oh shit, they can hit two pgens at the same time" which will kill your grid faster, makes targeting engies much more worth, etc, etc...
Shield spill is applied to all damage against a shield, of any kind. The only exception that I can think of is the tech 3 mobile shield buster of Aeon - I'm not sure if that spills.
@CM_Nicholas said in Another Novax conversation:
I think novaxes are relatively fine as they are, Maybe a slight balance change, but you have to remember a novax is 36k mass iirc, 2 of them costing about the same price of a t3 arty +/- 2k mass, but the damage output is nowhere near t3 arty, yeh arty doesn't have the precision of a novax, but a novax doesn't have the damage of an arty, it takes 2-3 artys of novaxes to be able to penetrate anything heavily shielded, and at that point you could have a Game Ender up.
In my point of view, the current 'goal' of a novax is not to bust a shield. It's either to grab all the unprotected but high value targets. Or to assist a Mavor to destroy the shields when they are depleted.
It also highly depends on what map you play. A Novax has little to no value on a map such as Dual Gap. It's much stronger on a map like Seton's Clutch where resources are more scattered.
