Another Novax conversation
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“in the real world” mass efficacy matters and paying half a t3 arty for cool moving soothsayer is a game loss unless you had a 20% mass generation advantage and already won the game 5 minutes ago.
Either you want to decrease it to 8k and make it a t3 unit, removing a t4 by function or you want to keep it the same cost and remove it by practicality. They’re both terrible options because it’s removing a problem by removing the unit. UEF losing their air t4 substitute requires compensation elsewhere or it needs to be done in a manner that maintains some sort of tangible t4 purpose.
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Novax Intel capabilities has been massively buffed sirca 2019, it didn’t have them prior to it. If Novax should be nerfed, un-buff is the first thing that comes to mind, not the last one.
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@FtXCommando You are probably right when you consider it from a pro level only perspective but the real world I speak of most players do not care about actual cost and being hyper efficient, they care about value and what they get out of something.
As I have said a forum post (at least not this one) is no place to decide on the actual stats this will have. I'm trying to achieve high level (in business high level means low detail) discussions to try and affect change but since we are talking about it.
Referring to the novax as t4 air is extremely inaccurate IMO and shouldn't be compared to the other t4 air units.
An eye is fairly cheap but requires alot of micro to be effective and has a small intel radius.
Soothsayer is very effective with its large intel radius but is static and easy to kill.
A novax is invincible and can move. If that isnt the t4 version of the previous 2 than I dont know what is.If we are going to compare the novax to the soothsayer and eye lets not try to also call it an air unit.
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At the very least you can give the intel costs like an Omni Radar -1500 Energy.
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It is currently an air unit. You know I thought the ground station actually had a ground background on its icon but no, it’s also got an air background. I wonder what theater GPG intended this unit to fill?
Nothing I said is contradictory. It currently operates as an air unit substitute. Arguing that novax being an intel structure is “good enough” means that the eye also needs to be considered an air substitute. I have used and seen the eye used for intel magnitudes more times than novax. Likewise for soothsayer. Wanna know why? Because that’s the main purpose of the unit and it’s priced with that intention. That’s how much the intel is worth. Nobody is paying 36k mass for a novax to explore the map. This value sits at around 8k mass, it’s not even in the realm of reason to go beyond 12k which is still half the cost of even the cheapest t4.
My point is you want to move it from being an air t4 substitute into a t3 intel structure that 2 other factions already have. That’s not a t4, that’s a t3 unit. It won’t be a t4 because it isn’t even worth half a monkeylord for what it does in that purpose. The mass cost I’m giving is already accounting for the fact it has the flexibility of both eye and soothsayer. That’s why it’s in that 8k mass cost area. Thinking that requires it to be 5x the cost of both of these units combined? That’s just not based in reality.
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@FtXCommando Traditionally speaking intel has been a major aspect of what the airforce does so it makes sense. You're probably right nobody will pay that much mass for intel very often and so reducing its costs seems like a good idea but then it begs the question what is the point in the Novax at all...right back to where we are now lol.
I think that this just highlights how unique the Novax is in comparison to any other unit in the game. Imagine if the Soothsayer had a monkeylord laser on top of it that could target anything in its visual radius and cost 30k mass. That is what the Novax is except it can fly anywhere and never really be targeted or countered.
Maybe reclassifying it is the solution which I guess is a complicated thing when you consider all factors.
It doesnt seem like there is any real good idea to try in alpha/beta testing so its just left as is.
I am curious FTX what do you think the optimal solution is for the Novax if nothing was off the table?
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I’d probably aim for making its combat aspect revolve around being a support tool. Have it have the ability to stun either land or air units under it as some EMP satellite. Introduce the ability to make units move slower as the satellite disrupts communication in its area with the ACU. Mobile shields no longer work. Who knows.
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@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
Imagine if the Soothsayer had a monkeylord laser on top of it that could target anything in its visual radius and cost 30k mass.
You do realize that a novax has the same dps of 10 mantis, not a ML?
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@TheWeakie I'm not aware of exact stats I'm just working from a conceptual point of view so yeah I may have exaggerated the comparison but my point is the same.
I guess we just always get back to having to deal with what the Novax is and move on? Why is it even in the game? Is it strictly due to lore? What about just removing it all together?
I dont know. Same result as any Novax conversation lol
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@FtXCommando said in Another Novax conversation:
I’d probably aim for making its combat aspect revolve around being a support tool. Have it have the ability to stun either land or air units under it as some EMP satellite. Introduce the ability to make units move slower as the satellite disrupts communication in its area with the ACU. Mobile shields no longer work. Who knows.
That actually seems pretty good IMO...if it stunned a pgen and turned it off rather than killing it and causing a chain reaction...I think the EMP effect makes the most sense but I have a 1.2k brain so anything seems good to me lol
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@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
@Salz Gives the UEF faction auto win late game.
Makes one arty as powerful as 3 or more.
I have now tested it with all shields.
Yes, double shield damage would be too much.Nevertheless, I am sticking to my idea. If you want to change the Novax, you need to do something more radical than just adding some energy consumption or reducing the base damage.
"This makes the Novax a support unit (scouting / shield disabling / stall effect).
This means that a Novax only becomes dangerous if you also have a T3 Arty nearby, for example, and the investment costs for effective use of a Novax increase accordingly, as the Novax is not dangerous without regular damage units."But the creator of the topic seems to have a general problem with the Novax and I don't think any suggestion will satisfy him except the complete removal of the unit.
And that brings us back to the question of whether we should just leave everything as it is. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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@Salz the only thing that would satisfy me from all of this would be an actual active program developed to doing something about the Novax involving the people that would actually have to do it me not being one of them because I agree with you something dramatic needs to be changed not just cost changes.
My only point in making this article was to try and spurn that change not to get any specific result because it does seem like the majority of players have a problem with the unit as is.
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I dont think any drastic changes are required
Personaly I like the suggestion made by silent bug, Reduce dps the further the sat travels from the station, stronger for defense weaker for attack.
Energy costs just makes sense, radar and omni both have energy drain so why is the novax the exception?
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@Caliber said in Another Novax conversation:
Energy costs just makes sense, radar and omni both have energy drain so why is the novax the exception?
From a gameplay perspective radar/omni only have an energy drain because they can skip tech tiers through upgrades. Putting the mass cost of the radar into the form of energy upkeep encourages teching up to appropriate pgen efficiency levels before being able to build a high-tech radar independently of engineer tech at the front.
There is also an additional point that expendable units with an energy upkeep are expensive to build but cheap to replace. Radars/omnis are killed rather often for a structure, especially T1 and T2 radars.Novax does not fit into either design idea because it is not upgradeable from anything and never gets destroyed since it is artillery. The only thing upkeep would do for a Novax is punish energy stalls (not like this game gives many opportunities for an enemy to do that), increase its effective mass cost, and make it slightly harder to defend since there is another pgen somewhere on the map.
I will concede that thematically it may make sense, but balance-wise if you add energy upkeep to Novax it would simply get a cost reduction. I say "may make sense" because on one side there's arty and intel energy drain, but on the other hand mobile units don't have intel (but not counterintel) or weapon energy upkeep.
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@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
I agree with you something dramatic needs to be changed not just cost changes.
I've discussed this idea last year over voice, and I'll post it here. It has three parts. The goal is to actually utilize the satellite layer. This layer exists in the game, but there's not much going on there. Ideally these satellites become part of armies, like any other mobile unit. To support the Fatboy - from above!
Not a ground station, but a factory
At the moment you need an additional ground station for each satellite. This is a little bit cumbersome. Both from a programmers perspective (the satellite is not shared when your defeated - it is rebuilt at the station). As I think it thematically lacks a bit.
Proposal: turn it into a factory. Allow it to pump satellites, like a regular factory.
Multiple type of satellites
Instead of just having one satellite, there will be three:
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- A scout satellite. Relatively cheap and provides various types of intel. Enables the UEF to have Omni intel on-site to counter stealth and cloak, for example.
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- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors
. By being missile-based, the satellite is easier to counter:
- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors
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- It makes the satellite worse against mobile armies. Just like mobile missile launchers.
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- It makes the satellite unusable against naval armies, as they are usually packed with mobile TMD.
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- You don't need to built shields everywhere, likely just 2 TMDs at each location.
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- A laser-based satellite. This would be similar to the current satellite, except that it's designed to bust shields. The beam is continuous. For its costs, it will deal relatively low damage to non-shielded units (think 1/4th). And it will deal about half the amount of damage against shields as the current Novax does. But then of course continuous.
All satellites will have an energy upkeep. The rational of @Nomander that upkeep is unusual for mobile units is correct. But given that these are the only units on the satellite layer, they can be their own niche. They are essentially flying buildings anyway. All weapons of the satellites also have upkeep to fire, just like for example stationary artillery and the Ravager do.
When a player runs out of power the satellites simply stop firing because of the weapon upkeep. When a player loses the last Novax center all satellites become uncontrollable and unelectable. They start losing health (and visually: orbit). When their health drops to 0, they crash to the ground.
Allow SMDs to intercept satellites (manually)
This idea is not new. It's used in LOUD. I like it thematically. It provides the player with an option to immediately counter a satellite if the player thinks it's necessary. For example, countering the laser-based satellite would be a no brainer if you are also being shelled by artillery.
Now, I don't talk about costs here because that's all too soon to discuss. It's the idea - the theme and the experience of it, is what this proposal is about. And of course the positioning of the units in the roster, what are their purpose and how do they remain balanced mechanically?
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
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@Jip really cool info.
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@Dorset There's a lot possible in this game. Of course, not everything. But if as long as you don't draw outside the lines then all of this wouldn't even be much work.
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@Jip Well I have zero skills or knowhow to be able to offer any assistance but I am sure happy that we have people who know how and are willing. I looked at a simple log file trying to troubleshoot my crashing and my brain nearly exploded from whatever the hell I read on that notepad lol
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@Jip I like this idea, and FWIW, using SMD to kill a satellite also exists in BlackOps with the 'Artemis' Aeon Experimental (nuke) Satellite.
Which is great, although the fact that SMD can shoot down the Artemis and not the Novax currently is... weird.
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@Jip said in Another Novax conversation:
@Dorset said in Another Novax conversation:
I agree with you something dramatic needs to be changed not just cost changes.
I've discussed this idea last year over voice, and I'll post it here. It has three parts. The goal is to actually utilize the satellite layer. This layer exists in the game, but there's not much going on there. Ideally these satellites become part of armies, like any other mobile unit. To support the Fatboy - from above!
Not a ground station, but a factory
At the moment you need an additional ground station for each satellite. This is a little bit cumbersome. Both from a programmers perspective (the satellite is not shared when your defeated - it is rebuilt at the station). As I think it thematically lacks a bit.
Proposal: turn it into a factory. Allow it to pump satellites, like a regular factory.
Multiple type of satellites
Instead of just having one satellite, there will be three:
-
- A scout satellite. Relatively cheap and provides various types of intel. Enables the UEF to have Omni intel on-site to counter stealth and cloak, for example.
-
- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors . By being missile-based, the satellite is easier to counter:
- A missile-based satellite. This would be the 'default' satellite, at the same costs of the current satellite. It fires a salvo of missiles. And those missiles can of course be intercepted by TMD. The missiles do not track, just like regular missiles. They will have some AOE though. And of course, you don't want to use this against Cybran missile deflectors
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- It makes the satellite worse against mobile armies. Just like mobile missile launchers.
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- It makes the satellite unusable against naval armies, as they are usually packed with mobile TMD.
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- You don't need to built shields everywhere, likely just 2 TMDs at each location.
-
- A laser-based satellite. This would be similar to the current satellite, except that it's designed to bust shields. The beam is continuous. For its costs, it will deal relatively low damage to non-shielded units (think 1/4th). And it will deal about half the amount of damage against shields as the current Novax does. But then of course continuous.
All satellites will have an energy upkeep. The rational of @Nomander that upkeep is unusual for mobile units is correct. But given that these are the only units on the satellite layer, they can be their own niche. They are essentially flying buildings anyway. All weapons of the satellites also have upkeep to fire, just like for example stationary artillery and the Ravager do.
When a player runs out of power the satellites simply stop firing because of the weapon upkeep. When a player loses the last Novax center all satellites become uncontrollable and unelectable. They start losing health (and visually: orbit). When their health drops to 0, they crash to the ground.
Allow SMDs to intercept satellites (manually)
This idea is not new. It's used in LOUD. I like it thematically. It provides the player with an option to immediately counter a satellite if the player thinks it's necessary. For example, countering the laser-based satellite would be a no brainer if you are also being shelled by artillery.
Now, I don't talk about costs here because that's all too soon to discuss. It's the idea - the theme and the experience of it, is what this proposal is about. And of course the positioning of the units in the roster, what are their purpose and how do they remain balanced mechanically?
Yes please
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