The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade)

Speaking of shields; And since this is the Billy thread...

What if a Billy projectile was able to go through shields without collision?
A counterbalance could be that it'll lose 1HP per shield that it goes through or deal less damage, but this way, Mobile 3 or 4 shields do not completely absorb the blast.

Reimplement the 'Return to sender' for Loyalists since they don't have mobile shields.

Still, it would be risky to throw a Billy at armies that are heavily shielded,
But would give more wiggle room to be able to use the upgrade.

~ Stryker

more exceptions = bad game design

also just not needed because billy isn't bad so why would it get a buff

@ftxcommando Oh, wow!
So the reason for the changes to shields all that time ago was that AGGRESSION was too strong back then?
(And, thus, the FaF nerf to shields was designed to help defensive / turtling play become strong? yes?)

That's a massive lesson for me... I thought it was the exact opposite!

Ok, so do people generally, currently, feel that attacking is currently (July 2023) too strong?
I got the impression that people felt that turtling was too strong at the moment.

Because it seems that, if attacking is too strong, the FaF 50% penalty to overlapping mobile shields is a great thing.
But if defense is too strong, then the FaF 50% penalty to overlapping shields should be reduced.
(I honestly aren't skilled enough to venture a guess either way)

I'm sorry for asking for this clarification, @FtXCommando : (I have read old threads as much as I can, I promise...) -
Is attacking currently considered better than turtling?
Or is turtling considered better?
Or is it considered balanced (outside of aforementioned UEF problems with artillery bases and Cybran needing absolvers to beat shields)

It's not about attacks being too strong, it's about a specific type of attack being too strong. It's cancerous to, for example, have to deal with 3 UEF battlecruisers under 25 bulwarks that you will never be able to touch or deal with. The gameplay isn't fun for anybody. You just keep stacking infinite HP in 1 spot, no micro, no consideration about unit mix, no interaction.

@sylph_ said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

Is attacking currently considered better than turtling?
Or is turtling considered better?
Or is it considered balanced (outside of aforementioned UEF problems with artillery bases and Cybran needing absolvers to beat shields)

I'm honest, I didn't read anything you wrote before and just stumbled across this take randomly. So if it's in a larger context, feel free to just ignore my message. If It's a general question, then I want to give at least my PoV to that topic.

The question is pretty much yes and no.
You have do differentiate first what gamemode you're referring to. 1v1? 3v3? 7v7?
I want to take Illshis (T2 Sera bots) as an example. They're expensive but strong. They rape most other units and can deal brutal damage. However since they cost so much, they have one problem such as every other expensive unit. An ACU fucks them because one Overcharge kills them easily.
And here it's important what we are talking about. In 1v1 they're strong. Because they just run around the ACU and fight other units, being worth the so called "T 2.5 unit" they are. However if we talk about a 6v6, then you can't run around an ACU. Cuz what happens? You stumble in another ACU. That's the reason you will literally only see 1-3 illshis in a large teamgame on the field. In total. And because of these type of things it's hard to say it in general.

Play a lot of teamgames and defensive, eco-heavy play is going to be more rewarding.
Play 1v1-3v3 and you'll find yourself spamming intis til minute 20 while not even thinking about upgrading a mex to T3.

That's also the reason why ppl saying "turtling is so OP in rating range X-Y" are basically clowns. Cuz the only reason to reward aggression even more in teamgames is to nerf the ACU. Which already happened quite a bit in the past, but you'd need to nerf it way more. Like SupCom2 ACU where you run away from 5 tanks cuz otherwise you're dead.

The following is honestly only my opinion:
<1000: figure out the basics of the game, usually ends in turtle-battles cuz they suicide a lot of stuff into firebases
1000-1500: Monkey spam with no / barely eco = pog OR purely ecoing with basically no units
1500-2000: Figure out how to balance spam+eco'ing so you have both units and eco
2000+: Learn the details. Perfection about unit micro, usage, eco'ing etc.
what I mean is that you also need to include what rating range you're talking about. Tbh.. Now after reading it, this paragraph is a bit out of context, but ig I'll just leave it here regardless?

If you want, I can offer you to talk about this sort of thing in VC someday.

@sladow-noob said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

usually ends in turtle-battles cuz they suicide a lot of stuff into firebases

I'm totally low rating!
I'm enjoying understanding the nuances of the current game a little better, and appreciate these topics.

FWIW, I usually play 1v1 games, but I try to get an understanding of team-game balance, ready for when I start daring to inflict myself on others more regularly!

@lunyshko cyb nano was nerfed, and the +20h/s regen on stealth was removed, so cybran acu seems pretty balanced to me now

@waffelznoob doesnt change the point.

the acu is very much killable now

In my opinion the 1000-1600 rating is where the most aggression occurs and where aggression is the most successful. These players have enough game knowledge and eco skills to preform an impressive rush but do not have the necessary scouting skills to spot and counter a rush.

<1000: Learning to get reclaim and acu micro
1000-1200: learning and perfecting one specific rush
1000-1600: Learning to make air factories early and improving scouting; using target priority mod
1300-1600: learning how to click trees and manual reclaim
1600+: pausing shields, radars, sonar, etc to avoid power stall; targeting scout planes
2000+: Niche micro tactics: strat bomber micro; paragon micro; awassha micro; etc.

Bro I don't do half of that stuff

Nice to see my good friend the paragon micro in the same sentence as strat and ahwassa micro

You would be surprised how many 1900s can't spend everything the paragon produces.

@accidental_aeon said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

You would be surprised how many 1900s can't spend everything the paragon produces.

I'd be surprised if it were possible to spend 10,000 mass a second in a normal, average match.

@comradestryker Yes i actually need 10,000 mass a second in every game for my 3333 mantis maker factories.

10k a tick, 10 ticks a second

10k a second. Just because Gyle says mass income per tick every time doesn't make it less wrong

You sure? If para is 10k a second that means it's only 1k a tick and most players can already manage that easy, they probably have that in evo before starting a para.

Wow this thread is a dumpster fire. There’s no such thing as mass per tick it’s per second. A tick is how often the game engine updates the game state and processes new inputs and has nothing to do with the economy. Economy is mass and energy per second. Paragon is 10k mass per second. Engineers consume mass per second based on their build power, the total build time in seconds for what they’re building, and the cost of what they’re building. Their mass consumption is per second. It has nothing to do with the game tick. Hopefully I said all that correctly but it’s at least close enough. If you’re competent it’s easy to spend a paragon’s mass - just watch Yudi or most other 2k+ Setoners and you’ll see them stall it at least sometimes. Most sub 1.8k don’t set things up well enough to spend a paragon’s worth of mass.

Why are we even talking about this in a thread about the billy nuke anyway.

@exselsior said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 2 (ACU Billy Nuke Upgrade):

There’s no such thing as mass per tick it’s per second. A tick is how often the game engine updates the game state and processes new inputs and has nothing to do with the economy. Economy is mass and energy per second.

You are describing your own simplified mental model of the game, not the game itself.

Ticks are not just for taking input from players. The game state is updated every tick. (And there's a 5-tick delay between giving a command and when the command is executed.)

Moving units move forward every tick.

Collisions are checked every tick.

Weapons can be fired every tick (if there is a target and they're not still on cooldown).

Weapons cooldown every tick until they're done cooling down.

Mass is delivered every tick, not just once per second.

Mass is spent every tick, not just once per second.

Mass is actually tracked by the game in units of 0.1 mass each. Let's call these units "atoms" because they are indivisible. So if a mantis costs 56 mass, it costs 560 "atoms" (indivisible mass units) that are each worth 0.1 mass.

A T1 mex that gives, over time, 2 mass/second, is actually delivering 2 atoms per tick.

Does all of this matter? It depends. If you're just trying to play the game, it's probably smarter to use a mental model that only updates once per second. If you're trying to make blueprints for a new unit or tweak the balance, then this tick-by-tick stuff actually matters.