FAF Beta - Feedback
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Then I don't quite get the energy cost explanation though: "while the bigger energy cost increase makes it a lot harder to make a fast second nuke."
On the current balance it takes (roughly) 1 additional t3 pgen to build a nuke launcher in a reasonable amount of time and 2 t3 pgens to actually load the missile.
The proposed change of doubling the energy cost would make it so you need 2 t3 pgens for the entire process. While this means you need to build the 2nd pgen earlier, which is a slight nerf, this results in essentially no change to the total cost of launching your first or any subsequent nukes.
(the additional 3k mass increase does of course increase cost though)If the goal is to discourage building a second launcher, beyond the proposed 3k mass increase, further increasing the launcher's mass cost, or the energy cost for launcher (and missile) beyond the 2 pgens from the proposed changes would have a much bigger effect imo.
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T Tagada referenced this topic on
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Updated the changelog with the following new changes:
Jamming for T3 UEF Air
Redirection of Billy Nuke by Loyalists
More Sparky buffs
Fix for Aeon ACU Heavy Shield IconPossible upcoming changes:
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Further adjustment of nukes thanks to your feedback. Increasing the E cost of missiles and adjusting previous changes
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Nerfing the E cost of the T3 artillery in line with adjustments made to Nukes and Air T4s
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Reworking the bubble shield of UEF ACU
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Bringing back the strength of GC's claws to a normal level
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Buffing the Loyalist's ability
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More tweaks for kennels
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Soul Ripper tweaks to make it a cheaper experimental with more focus on value over time
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Reducing the Crash Damage of Air experimentals
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Small rework of the Bulwark to emphasize its use on the T2 rather the T3 stage
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Mini SACU Rework
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Nerfing the HARMS
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Buffing Higher Tech engineers by making them more BP efficient
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Adjusting T2 static Artillery
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Possible Billy Nuke adjustments
Stay tuned and thank you for all of the feedback so far.
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@blodir said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Looks like an overnerf
nothing is an overnerf to what snipers currently are
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T3 UEF Air
Added jamming for Spy Planes and Strategic BombersAllow Sparkies to build T1 factories
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Happy now?
Or do I need to give UEF Frigs hover ability as well? -
Time to main uef i guess
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@tagada said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Happy now?
Or do I need to give UEF Frigs hover ability as well?Looks good, your list of possible changes looks great as well, hope you guys have the time and endurance for achieving some of that changes as well.
I have the impression that in this list and the current change log most points of the community are included. So thanks for your work so far and being here on display
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@unknow said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Time to main uef i guess
Yes. As basicly all changes can be summarised: " make UEF much stronger, and other nations/factions weaker..."
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The only big nerfs in this patch are nukes and air t4s?
Snipers and bot nerf basically cancel out the OP units from each faction on t3 stage and asylum is stupid for being a way higher utility parashield that costs half the E.
The buffs to UEF units either buff units that are a mistake to make (valiant, kennel) or give UEF the ability to play in a unique way from other factions (sparky, jamming)
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My thoughts:
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Asylum (Aeon T2 mobile shield)
Good change but my "Aeon main" heart cries. -
Titan and Loyalist
Good change.
Titans have been oppressive since their buff. Shame this change also affects Loyalist. Loyalists need some TLC. -
Sniper bots
Problematic change.
They already feel like they fall out of mobile shields too easily and die to suicide T1 bombers. Increasing their price simply hurts that more. Perhaps a minor HP increase to cater to the average joe? Still the proposed change will stop snowballs. -
Air Experimentals
Good change.
The energy cost increases should help normalise them in the air game. -
Valiant (UEF Destroyer)
Bad change.
Yes, the Valiant is jokingly "hot garbage" compared to its factional counterparts. This is offset by the Neptune and its ability to crush T1 and T2. Buff the Valiant and the UEF navy will be OP. -
T3 UEF Air
Controversial change.
What do Seraphim and Aeon get? Cybran = Stealth. UEF = Jamming. What about the others?
Jamming in ASF battles? A very bold idea.
Energy cost for Jamming on the Ambassador (UEF T3 bomber) should equal the Stealth cost of the Revenant (Cybran T3 bomber). 150 E/s. -
Salem
Good change.
All other LABs have 360 degrees attack, so this makes the Salem suck less at that. However, it's still primarily a scout. -
Sparky
Mixed change.
Intel structures good, factory bad. Why not just give the Sparky access to a full blueprint if you are giving it access to the factory? How to over buff a unit right here.
Most powerful backline drops in the game. Mandatory UEF for proxy firebases. -
Kennels
Mostly bad change.
Give the drones a leash range if you want to pull them in line with hives. This cost reduction is too strong without a leash. While you're there, give the Novax a leash range of 825 (same as T3 arty). -
Nukes (silos and subs)
Mixed thoughts.
Probably good? Never found nukes oppressive to begin with since RAS bois exist. Nerf RAS, then think about a nuke silo nerf. Nuke subs however can use the nerf. -
Mechanics
ACU and SACU changes good.
Loyalist change bad.
Loyalists are already pathetic as is. This change would be fine if accompanied by a range increase to their redirect laser.
Afterthoughts.
Give the Uashavoh (Sera T2 destroyer) a Turret Yaw increase. This unit is supposed to be heavily microed and the Yaw hinders this.
Instead of an 11% HP increase for the Valiant, give it a move speed buff to enhance its "skirmishing" ability. Adds micro and skill cap to the unit.
Snipers. A nerf for them would be to halve all their current stats, including DPS and Mass cost. Everything but physics, range and intel. They wouldn't fit under shields anymore if amassed. Very big nerf. Syke.
Emissary. The worst T3 arty. Buff projectile speed. 120 -> 150. Problem solved. Niche role. Rapid and accurate fringe target destruction. Still trash at base killing. -
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I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.
Moments like this are what make Supcom's trajectory based projectile simulation awesome
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@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.
It’s as though you add a 5% chance that Cybran laser kills your ACU if you cause a chain pgen explosion.
You’re paying half a million e in the missile + upgrade and risk getting a missile you can’t interact with sent back to you (which you paid for).
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Asylum - Makes sense, it's T2 and can hover.
Titan/Loyalist - This will play out strangely, the Loyalist probably more negatively impacted. If you can't crank out as many as quickly, why not a brick?
Sniper bots - I feel like this is too much too fast, I can see some of the changes being reversed, likely the mass cost, the build time is good.
Ahwassa - With the energy increase, I'm not sure the AoE shrink is needed. The additional infrastructure needed to afford the power requirements seems like a big hit.
Czar - I'm not sure how this will play out.
Valiant - I like it, UEF units tend to have more HP. It'll be the Pillar of Destroyers, if that makes sense. Not great DPS, high HP, sticks around for a long time to "Tar pit" the enemy.
Salem - It seems like such a small change, not sure what will happen.
Sparky - I like the idea of stealth fields and radar, I don't like T1 factory ability.
Kennel/drone - solid change.
Nukes - Seems fair, once someone has one, if they're dug in hard enough it's hard to stop them.
Nuke Subs - Good, follows suit.
Loyalist and Billy nukes - I suppose this is fair, the idea of a Loyalist tossing a billy back is funny though.
UEF T3 air jamming - Make it cost as much as Cybran stealth for it's Energy cost.With cybran and UEF having stealth and jamming, what of Aeon and Seraphim? I suggest increasing the Omni radius of the Aeon T3 spy plane, and adding that temporary vision to the Seraphim T3 spy planes, maybe a bigger vision radius after it crashes.
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Ok just make it able to be targeted by TMD on return if possible. It's a small tactical missile, and loyalists can deflect all tac missiles no matter how expensive or destructive
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It’s a tactical nuke, actually. And loyas can’t redirect nukes.
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The nuke is the payload. The delivery system is a tactical missile. Obviously strategic missiles are too big and fly too high and fast for the Loyalist's hacking system to work. Countermeasures attack the delivery system, not the payload. Otherwise nuke defense would shoot at an exploding commander to stop their nuke explosion (which used to be equal to an actual SML detonation)
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FtX tells me it's fine for nukes to hit planes or randomly get killed by battleship cannons, it's just a comeback mechanic, and it's funny. He should support the billy nuke being redirected by loyalists too.
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Maybe it would be good to add some more hp or damage to loyas, except do a such a useless stuff, and continue buffing titans, as immortal rush t3 unit, with a combine in hopefully raids into the impressive persivales->win?
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@thomashiatt said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
FtX tells me it's fine for nukes to hit planes or randomly get killed by battleship cannons, it's just a comeback mechanic, and it's funny. He should support the billy nuke being redirected by loyalists too.
I’d support billy being shot down if laser/double gun/chrono also carried an auto-lose button. Nukes being cancered impacted everybody.
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I'm replying in bulk to a few people about some stuff they said, so, bare with me and don't panic if I mixed up who said what... I was all over the place.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
- Valiant (UEF Destroyer)
Bad change.
Yes, the Valiant is jokingly "hot garbage" compared to its factional counterparts. This is offset by the Neptune and its ability to crush T1 and T2. Buff the Valiant and the UEF navy will be OP.
The Valiant should fit in a better position, now.
Not only does it fit with the faction perk of having the most HP, but the HP is offset by its horrible torpedoes and main weapon range; it's pretty bad, but with the slight HP increase, it could be the brawler it was designed to be. The Valiant is mainly just a T2 Frigate, at best, in my opinion - it should at least excel in being cannon fodder. The actual UEF Destroyer title belongs to the Neptune.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Instead of an 11% HP increase for the Valiant, give it a move speed buff to enhance its "skirmishing" ability. Adds micro and skill cap to the unit.
As I said, its role is just a tanker unit. The HP increase is preferred. The speed increase would mean that it would leave its escorts, or whatever it was escorting, behind. You don't want destroyers on the front line, you want frigates, on the front. Then the destroyers behind the frigates.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
- T3 UEF Air
Controversial change.
What do Seraphim and Aeon get? Cybran = Stealth. UEF = Jamming. What about the others?
Jamming in ASF battles? A very bold idea.
Energy cost for Jamming on the Ambassador (UEF T3 bomber) should equal the Stealth cost of the Revenant (Cybran T3 bomber). 150 E/s.
@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
With cybran and UEF having stealth and jamming, what of Aeon and Seraphim? I suggest increasing the Omni radius of the Aeon T3 spy plane, and adding that temporary vision to the Seraphim T3 spy planes, maybe a bigger vision radius after it crashes.
UEF T3 air jamming - Make it cost as much as Cybran stealth for it's Energy cost.
I can't answer what Aeon and Sera could get, as counter-intel on their factions is lacking, but I can argue that the Jamming on UEF T3 air is needed. Their presence in the air is not as strong as other factions - especially when you consider T4 Exps. That's the whole reason why the UEF strat now deals the most damage - as the UEF doesn't have an aggressive T4 air Exp.
As for the Jamming cost of the Strat, 25 Energy cost seems to me to be a reasonable idea... As Jamming is not anywhere close to Stealth in strength. Stealth is significantly more powerful, hence it should cost more than Jamming. You can't see Stealth with radar... meaning you can't react to it until it's on top of you, but you can see Jamming... meaning you can react to it.
Jamming < Stealth
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
- Salem
Good change.
All other LABs have 360 degrees attack, so this makes the Salem suck less at that. However, it's still primarily a scout.
Salem is the Cybran T2 Destroyer.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
- Sparky
Mixed change.
Intel structures good, factory bad. Why not just give the Sparky access to a full blueprint if you are giving it access to the factory? How to over buff a unit right here.
Most powerful backline drops in the game. Mandatory UEF for proxy firebases.
@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Sparky - I like the idea of stealth fields and radar, I don't like T1 factory ability.
Sparkies will be considerably better for drops, yes, as they should, they're field engineers. Otherwise, what's the point of the unit? It was limited to building only T1 factories, as they're mainly combat engineers, they're not meant to replace standard T2 engineers - as they can't build economical buildings like Pgens or Mexes. They're also quite expensive compared to standard T2 engineers. Almost double the mass cost, for only about 30% more BP. Not a good trade.
The Sparky is much better but I don't think it will be replacing T2 engineers anytime soon.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
- Kennels
Mostly bad change.
Give the drones a leash range if you want to pull them in line with hives. This cost reduction is too strong without a leash. While you're there, give the Novax a leash range of 825 (same as T3 arty).
Kennels are bad, and will still be bad after this change, just slightly less bad. Limiting their range would be a horrible idea as that is one of the few advantages that they have over the Hive. The Hive is incredibly efficient - even at all upgrade levels. The Kennel still has horrible BP-to-mass ratios, even with the mass reduction cost.
As for their HP, inties still one-shot them, and they're still cheaper than the drones. We're talking about drones that cost 100 mass each (from 250 mass) with 50 HP now, vs an intie that costs 50 mass and deals 50 damage per shot. Seems like a good counter, to me.
As for the Novax... if you leash it, reduce its mass cost and Build Time.
But definitely not 825. It's an Exp... should be at least 1500.:
Now, I wonder why the other drones didn't get the same or similar changes... Hmm.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
- Mechanics
ACU and SACU changes good.
Loyalist change bad.
Loyalists are already pathetic as is. This change would be fine if accompanied by a range increase to their redirect laser.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Titan and Loyalist
Good change.
Titans have been oppressive since their buff. Shame this change also affects Loyalist. Loyalists need some TLC.@espiranto said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Maybe it would be good to add some more hp or damage to loyas, except do a such a useless stuff, and continue buffing titans, as immortal rush t3 unit, with a combine in hopefully raids into the impressive persivales->win?
@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.
Moments like this are what make Supcom's trajectory based projectile simulation awesome
@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Loyalist and Billy nukes - I suppose this is fair, the idea of a Loyalist tossing a billy back is funny though.
@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Ok just make it able to be targeted by TMD on return if possible. It's a small tactical missile, and loyalists can deflect all tac missiles no matter how expensive or destructive
@tagada said in FAF Beta Current Changelog:
Loyalists will no longer redirect Billy Nukes
Loyalists redirecting Billy's was quite an amazing detail - as much as I love the UEF, I thought that was fine.
If anything, make the redirected projectile hostile, so allied TMD could shoot it down. But removing the ability to redirect the projectile entirely, I'm not sure that was a change the Billy needed. A reduction of the projectile mass and energy costs would've been preferred, either that or a damage adjustment. The upgrade itself is in a good spot, but the projectile, not so much.As for the Loyalist's abilty, why not make it SHOOT its EMP? Like a Cybran Rambo com... just obviously, not as strong. EMP every 3rd or 4th shot from its main weapon, perhaps? Disabling units for like, a tenth of a second. Not much, no, but in groups, would be devastating. Disabling the unit's movements and weaponry. The death EMP could be left as is, as it doesn't do much as is, unless in very close range.
I do agree that Titans are a much stronger option than Loyalists, but changing their Build Time, was a good call. They're both anti-spam units, being able to rush one out faster than the other would likely break early T3 stages - causing a snowball later down the match - especially in smaller matches.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Afterthoughts.
Give the Uashavoh (Sera T2 destroyer) a Turret Yaw increase. This unit is supposed to be heavily microed and the Yaw hinders this.The fact that it doesn't miss a target with its beams, and can submerge doesn't mean anything...?
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Snipers. A nerf for them would be to halve all their current stats, including DPS and Mass cost. Everything but physics, range and intel. They wouldn't fit under shields anymore if amassed. Very big nerf. Syke.
Interesting suggestion. Though... If you halve all of its stats (minus range), wouldn't that mean... it gets buffed? So, if you get 2 out at the same time it would have taken you to build 1... not only are you splitting the damage between 2, now.. but you're increasing its target ability - meaning, less overkill and more rate of fire. Not just that, but the fact that you'd be increasing survivability, and in that case, damage potential, too. If one sniper dies, that's only half of the DPS, lost. Similar to a Percy and a Brick; A Percy has high damage with a low fire rate, which makes it suck against spam. Meanwhile, a Brick deals less damage per shot but fires quickly... shreds through multiple targets. That's what the change would do for snipers... nerfing the unit itself by making it cheaper, but it'll place the unit in a much stronger position.
@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Emissary. The worst T3 arty. Buff projectile speed. 120 -> 150. Problem solved. Niche role. Rapid and accurate fringe target destruction. Still trash at base killing.
Worst? The damage is great! Though it does fire slowly, so the projectile speed could be adjusted, but I don't see how that would fix anything, it still fires slowly. The damage would be applied sooner when it fires, but it would still fire at the same rate? If anything, it buffs it so it can change targets sooner... which if that's the case, would make it strong with its accuracy.
@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Ahwassa - With the energy increase, I'm not sure the AoE shrink is needed. The additional infrastructure needed to afford the power requirements seems like a big hit.
Reducing the AoE by one point is not gonna be noticeable in gameplay. The damage that needed to be done was already dealt in the area it needed to. (*Especially when paired with its crash damage.)
Will it make a difference? Probably, as the area it's directly impacting is a lot less, meaning a building or unit on the very edge survived that bomb; but in gameplay terms - if it wasn't aiming for it or if it wasn't the main target, then it's likely not an important building or unit. (Nothing the next bomb can't clean up.)
Overall, I believe most of these changes are great, though a few I am questioning.
Though I do believe the Asylum maintenance cost is still WAY too cheap for its respective strength.Nothing else, I already didn't mention, though.
Looking forward, to the patch!
~ Stryker
- Valiant (UEF Destroyer)
