FAF Beta - Feedback

I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.

Moments like this are what make Supcom's trajectory based projectile simulation awesome

@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.

It’s as though you add a 5% chance that Cybran laser kills your ACU if you cause a chain pgen explosion.

You’re paying half a million e in the missile + upgrade and risk getting a missile you can’t interact with sent back to you (which you paid for).

Asylum - Makes sense, it's T2 and can hover.
Titan/Loyalist - This will play out strangely, the Loyalist probably more negatively impacted. If you can't crank out as many as quickly, why not a brick?
Sniper bots - I feel like this is too much too fast, I can see some of the changes being reversed, likely the mass cost, the build time is good.
Ahwassa - With the energy increase, I'm not sure the AoE shrink is needed. The additional infrastructure needed to afford the power requirements seems like a big hit.
Czar - I'm not sure how this will play out.
Valiant - I like it, UEF units tend to have more HP. It'll be the Pillar of Destroyers, if that makes sense. Not great DPS, high HP, sticks around for a long time to "Tar pit" the enemy.
Salem - It seems like such a small change, not sure what will happen.
Sparky - I like the idea of stealth fields and radar, I don't like T1 factory ability.
Kennel/drone - solid change.
Nukes - Seems fair, once someone has one, if they're dug in hard enough it's hard to stop them.
Nuke Subs - Good, follows suit.
Loyalist and Billy nukes - I suppose this is fair, the idea of a Loyalist tossing a billy back is funny though.
UEF T3 air jamming - Make it cost as much as Cybran stealth for it's Energy cost.

With cybran and UEF having stealth and jamming, what of Aeon and Seraphim? I suggest increasing the Omni radius of the Aeon T3 spy plane, and adding that temporary vision to the Seraphim T3 spy planes, maybe a bigger vision radius after it crashes.

@ftxcommando

Ok just make it able to be targeted by TMD on return if possible. It's a small tactical missile, and loyalists can deflect all tac missiles no matter how expensive or destructive

It’s a tactical nuke, actually. And loyas can’t redirect nukes.

@ftxcommando

The nuke is the payload. The delivery system is a tactical missile. Obviously strategic missiles are too big and fly too high and fast for the Loyalist's hacking system to work. Countermeasures attack the delivery system, not the payload. Otherwise nuke defense would shoot at an exploding commander to stop their nuke explosion (which used to be equal to an actual SML detonation)

FtX tells me it's fine for nukes to hit planes or randomly get killed by battleship cannons, it's just a comeback mechanic, and it's funny. He should support the billy nuke being redirected by loyalists too.

Maybe it would be good to add some more hp or damage to loyas, except do a such a useless stuff, and continue buffing titans, as immortal rush t3 unit, with a combine in hopefully raids into the impressive persivales->win?

@thomashiatt said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

FtX tells me it's fine for nukes to hit planes or randomly get killed by battleship cannons, it's just a comeback mechanic, and it's funny. He should support the billy nuke being redirected by loyalists too.

I’d support billy being shot down if laser/double gun/chrono also carried an auto-lose button. Nukes being cancered impacted everybody.

I'm replying in bulk to a few people about some stuff they said, so, bare with me and don't panic if I mixed up who said what... I was all over the place.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

• Valiant (UEF Destroyer)
  Bad change.
  Yes, the Valiant is jokingly "hot garbage" compared to its factional counterparts. This is offset by the Neptune and its ability to crush T1 and T2. Buff the Valiant and the UEF navy will be OP.

The Valiant should fit in a better position, now.
Not only does it fit with the faction perk of having the most HP, but the HP is offset by its horrible torpedoes and main weapon range; it's pretty bad, but with the slight HP increase, it could be the brawler it was designed to be. The Valiant is mainly just a T2 Frigate, at best, in my opinion - it should at least excel in being cannon fodder. The actual UEF Destroyer title belongs to the Neptune.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Instead of an 11% HP increase for the Valiant, give it a move speed buff to enhance its "skirmishing" ability. Adds micro and skill cap to the unit.

As I said, its role is just a tanker unit. The HP increase is preferred. The speed increase would mean that it would leave its escorts, or whatever it was escorting, behind. You don't want destroyers on the front line, you want frigates, on the front. Then the destroyers behind the frigates.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

• T3 UEF Air
  Controversial change.
  What do Seraphim and Aeon get? Cybran = Stealth. UEF = Jamming. What about the others?
  Jamming in ASF battles? A very bold idea.
  Energy cost for Jamming on the Ambassador (UEF T3 bomber) should equal the Stealth cost of the Revenant (Cybran T3 bomber). 150 E/s.

@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

With cybran and UEF having stealth and jamming, what of Aeon and Seraphim? I suggest increasing the Omni radius of the Aeon T3 spy plane, and adding that temporary vision to the Seraphim T3 spy planes, maybe a bigger vision radius after it crashes.

UEF T3 air jamming - Make it cost as much as Cybran stealth for it's Energy cost.

I can't answer what Aeon and Sera could get, as counter-intel on their factions is lacking, but I can argue that the Jamming on UEF T3 air is needed. Their presence in the air is not as strong as other factions - especially when you consider T4 Exps. That's the whole reason why the UEF strat now deals the most damage - as the UEF doesn't have an aggressive T4 air Exp.

As for the Jamming cost of the Strat, 25 Energy cost seems to me to be a reasonable idea... As Jamming is not anywhere close to Stealth in strength. Stealth is significantly more powerful, hence it should cost more than Jamming. You can't see Stealth with radar... meaning you can't react to it until it's on top of you, but you can see Jamming... meaning you can react to it.
Jamming < Stealth

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

• Salem
  Good change.
  All other LABs have 360 degrees attack, so this makes the Salem suck less at that. However, it's still primarily a scout.

Salem is the Cybran T2 Destroyer.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

• Sparky
  Mixed change.
  Intel structures good, factory bad. Why not just give the Sparky access to a full blueprint if you are giving it access to the factory? How to over buff a unit right here.
  Most powerful backline drops in the game. Mandatory UEF for proxy firebases.

@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Sparky - I like the idea of stealth fields and radar, I don't like T1 factory ability.

Sparkies will be considerably better for drops, yes, as they should, they're field engineers. Otherwise, what's the point of the unit? It was limited to building only T1 factories, as they're mainly combat engineers, they're not meant to replace standard T2 engineers - as they can't build economical buildings like Pgens or Mexes. They're also quite expensive compared to standard T2 engineers. Almost double the mass cost, for only about 30% more BP. Not a good trade.
The Sparky is much better but I don't think it will be replacing T2 engineers anytime soon.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

• Kennels
  Mostly bad change.
  Give the drones a leash range if you want to pull them in line with hives. This cost reduction is too strong without a leash. While you're there, give the Novax a leash range of 825 (same as T3 arty).

Kennels are bad, and will still be bad after this change, just slightly less bad. Limiting their range would be a horrible idea as that is one of the few advantages that they have over the Hive. The Hive is incredibly efficient - even at all upgrade levels. The Kennel still has horrible BP-to-mass ratios, even with the mass reduction cost.

As for their HP, inties still one-shot them, and they're still cheaper than the drones. We're talking about drones that cost 100 mass each (from 250 mass) with 50 HP now, vs an intie that costs 50 mass and deals 50 damage per shot. Seems like a good counter, to me.

As for the Novax... if you leash it, reduce its mass cost and Build Time.
But definitely not 825. It's an Exp... should be at least 1500.:

Now, I wonder why the other drones didn't get the same or similar changes... Hmm.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

• Mechanics
  ACU and SACU changes good.
  Loyalist change bad.
  Loyalists are already pathetic as is. This change would be fine if accompanied by a range increase to their redirect laser.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Titan and Loyalist
Good change.
Titans have been oppressive since their buff. Shame this change also affects Loyalist. Loyalists need some TLC.

@espiranto said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Maybe it would be good to add some more hp or damage to loyas, except do a such a useless stuff, and continue buffing titans, as immortal rush t3 unit, with a combine in hopefully raids into the impressive persivales->win?

@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.

Moments like this are what make Supcom's trajectory based projectile simulation awesome

@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Loyalist and Billy nukes - I suppose this is fair, the idea of a Loyalist tossing a billy back is funny though.

@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Ok just make it able to be targeted by TMD on return if possible. It's a small tactical missile, and loyalists can deflect all tac missiles no matter how expensive or destructive

@tagada said in FAF Beta Current Changelog:

Loyalists will no longer redirect Billy Nukes

Loyalists redirecting Billy's was quite an amazing detail - as much as I love the UEF, I thought that was fine.
If anything, make the redirected projectile hostile, so allied TMD could shoot it down. But removing the ability to redirect the projectile entirely, I'm not sure that was a change the Billy needed. A reduction of the projectile mass and energy costs would've been preferred, either that or a damage adjustment. The upgrade itself is in a good spot, but the projectile, not so much.

As for the Loyalist's abilty, why not make it SHOOT its EMP? Like a Cybran Rambo com... just obviously, not as strong. EMP every 3rd or 4th shot from its main weapon, perhaps? Disabling units for like, a tenth of a second. Not much, no, but in groups, would be devastating. Disabling the unit's movements and weaponry. The death EMP could be left as is, as it doesn't do much as is, unless in very close range.

I do agree that Titans are a much stronger option than Loyalists, but changing their Build Time, was a good call. They're both anti-spam units, being able to rush one out faster than the other would likely break early T3 stages - causing a snowball later down the match - especially in smaller matches.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Afterthoughts.
Give the Uashavoh (Sera T2 destroyer) a Turret Yaw increase. This unit is supposed to be heavily microed and the Yaw hinders this.

The fact that it doesn't miss a target with its beams, and can submerge doesn't mean anything...?

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Snipers. A nerf for them would be to halve all their current stats, including DPS and Mass cost. Everything but physics, range and intel. They wouldn't fit under shields anymore if amassed. Very big nerf. Syke.

Interesting suggestion. Though... If you halve all of its stats (minus range), wouldn't that mean... it gets buffed? So, if you get 2 out at the same time it would have taken you to build 1... not only are you splitting the damage between 2, now.. but you're increasing its target ability - meaning, less overkill and more rate of fire. Not just that, but the fact that you'd be increasing survivability, and in that case, damage potential, too. If one sniper dies, that's only half of the DPS, lost. Similar to a Percy and a Brick; A Percy has high damage with a low fire rate, which makes it suck against spam. Meanwhile, a Brick deals less damage per shot but fires quickly... shreds through multiple targets. That's what the change would do for snipers... nerfing the unit itself by making it cheaper, but it'll place the unit in a much stronger position.

@arran said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Emissary. The worst T3 arty. Buff projectile speed. 120 -> 150. Problem solved. Niche role. Rapid and accurate fringe target destruction. Still trash at base killing.

Worst? The damage is great! Though it does fire slowly, so the projectile speed could be adjusted, but I don't see how that would fix anything, it still fires slowly. The damage would be applied sooner when it fires, but it would still fire at the same rate? If anything, it buffs it so it can change targets sooner... which if that's the case, would make it strong with its accuracy.

@tankenabard said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Ahwassa - With the energy increase, I'm not sure the AoE shrink is needed. The additional infrastructure needed to afford the power requirements seems like a big hit.

Reducing the AoE by one point is not gonna be noticeable in gameplay. The damage that needed to be done was already dealt in the area it needed to. (*Especially when paired with its crash damage.)
Will it make a difference? Probably, as the area it's directly impacting is a lot less, meaning a building or unit on the very edge survived that bomb; but in gameplay terms - if it wasn't aiming for it or if it wasn't the main target, then it's likely not an important building or unit. (Nothing the next bomb can't clean up.)

Overall, I believe most of these changes are great, though a few I am questioning.
Though I do believe the Asylum maintenance cost is still WAY too cheap for its respective strength.

Nothing else, I already didn't mention, though.
Looking forward, to the patch!

~ Stryker

While you're there, give the Novax a leash range of 825 (same as T3 arty).

IMO the Novax should have its gun nerfed and vision range buffed. Both Aeon and Cybran already have T3 vision structures.

Redirection of Billy Nuke by Loyalists

Just make it regular TMD. Return-to-sender is such a ridiculous mechanic (both gameplay and realism).

Daily reminder aoe is a circle and the change to washer reduces the aoe by 10%.

@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Daily reminder aoe is a circle and the change to washer reduces the aoe by 10%.

Left Image: FAF (21 Walls in AoE radius)
Right Image: FAF Beta (20 Walls in AoE radius)

10% less AoE, but since that 10% is scattered across the circumference of the circle...

Conclusion:
Negligible difference, in-game. You won't notice it.

~ Stryker.

@tagada said in FAF Beta - Feedback:

Redirection of Billy Nuke by Loyalists

while the idea of the Billy being return to sender seems like a highlight of the in-game physics, it happens so very rarely that losing it does not seem significant.

what it would allow, is an increase in the tmd defense range for the loyas which could really use some buffs. currently the tmd return has such poor range that it is almost impossible to defend larger units or structures, eg a mega, because the tac missiles impact so high up. being able to use a few roaming loyalists to help defend your xps against tac batteries would be nice

More Sparky buffs

the added blueprints are great, with the exception of the t1 factories - not sure if this has been tested yet but i feel having a mix of riptides and sparkies vs navy, is going to be too strong when you can easily spam navy facs as you push forwarded for added frigs and taking all the reclkaim

Radius of 19 gives surface 10,8% smaller, than radius of 20. And it is a huge difference in-game. Now on the picture, one circle has surface about 2,6% smaller than another! Seems like straight up fraud.

Edit, it was not jet uploaded...

• Do something with cybran acu, its having choose gun or t2. except other factions may have two of it. Thats not cool. Also two shields' or two nano's of three factions against 1k hp stealth for acu. That difference make cyb acu fatal papper and useless after t1 stage and in that timings awesome

• Loyas should have some buff,cuz-a power of titans.

• Corsairs sshould have better turn rate, or at least do not missing t2 pgen or smth else. Thats stupid when 2 corsairs do not oneshoting t2 pgen cuz-a misses. Also useless at airfights and not balanced to t2 air of any of fractions.

• Upgraded at least one Shield from T2~-into max, would be nice to have it at the tab as ready to place, like it with a HQ's and Support Fac's.

• If u have an Atlantis, Air-crafter, Czar and able to build asfs, why the support fac's should not produce, if I can build this unit. But somehow HQ dies before.

• Mantis should have a bit increased turn rate, it having huge issue with a microing and like 70% times mantis just turining and cant shot this time.

• Stealth for real a useless with this balance thing's, if talk about ladder, the guy may have UEF, Aeon ACU. 10-12 shields some 5-7 t2 tanks, and in legally cybran acu with a 20 t2 and 3-4 stealth tanks will just lose this fight. Cuz-a only 1 air scout will show everything and ACU's power with OC and massive tanking hp, will just crush stronger army. Need an rebalance of stealth as balance it against shields of aeon-uef t2 stage.

• And something about cerberus, t2 cybran pd. Is not so good, like a aeon with oneshot-onekill, threeade as uef also pretty same, taushala as sera also is not bad, But something would be nice to have as advice, maybe increase turn rate, so it maybe will have at least one good thing, as unstop-able damaging units, as other factions having "loading" process between shots.

• Loyalist ability is at full mark are useless, for de fact. If u shot at unit and loya dies = u have damage to this unit like a 500~+ and loya will die with stun effect to this unit. Ability just saying = u can ctrl+k ur unit to stun with same timing. Its kinda useless as Say it against Shield(1.5x hp) for titans. Need rework this shit. Maybe would be cool change this useless and not effective charge into something like a T2 bomb. with a damage like its having t2 stealth bomb.

• Also addition info, game is fatal going from any agressive things, expanding. Fights between units and reclaim, into sandboxing and hard ecoing. Just for a fact of team games, u may have 0 tanks, and rushing t2 mexes as a whore, and U will have ahead at all game against enemy who did 15-20 tanks and do not can push cuz'a of acu and only one pd builded. After that became t3 rush what such a crushing ur t1-t2 units, with a less for a moment economy.

• Maybe we should stop looking towards the eco-sim, at least for a while, and add a pinch of extravagance and activity with the importance of map control. Or encourage gap eco-sims, sometimes a setton with 0 activity, otherwise you can lose the game in favor of activity in the game and implementation? After literally playing a bunch of setts and a couple of hundred gap games, it doesn't really matter if you win your lane, if you implement something better, and if you play any aspect of the game elegantly. It will all collapse if the little man just presses one button then another on the mex, and will be ahead of you in economics until the end of the game, if in the end you simply do not focus on the "economy" in order to simply be able to win. As a comparison of this situation, one can give an example of how Foley and Yudi play. Some people fucking rip their asses to win their lane and do it really well that you don't see players like that on a 2k+ stage in 1v1. And someone just press click then upgrade mekekes with a builing free units only t1, just for that so that the opponent wastes time on useless units until you make yourself a 3k incame. And you will not fatally bend the entire enemy team 1v4. It's really normal that the economy is so cancerous to the whole gameplay, micro moments, expansion and so on. It becomes boring, every time instead of various chips and gameplay of games, turn it into another eco-parade.

• I myself had to move away from gameplay, raids, control and implementation of evil and malicious plans in favor of the economy and the choice of other factions due to the fatal debuffs of cybrans and buffs(lovely factions of balance team) of the UEF and Sera factions that are favorite for games. It is still possible to cope with completely unplayable cybrans due to the implementation of other gameplay moments. But when they turn the game into a purely "Press F for mex to win" and the same with rac-bots, it becomes more like a cushioning cushion for any gameplay when you can simply destroy all. If we talk about the situation from 1 to 1, the situation is a little different there, you simply rush the metas, and thanks to the metas, you make free a lot of what you could spend on the implementation of something in favor of additional. t2 mex, and run amok with a strong tech economy. Here the situation is more likely from the implementation of these "strong actions" the economy goes into the background, also like a depreciation cushion. And again, again, if you can't destroy those naapany t2 mexs instead of units, any of your control of the map and killing t1 engineers, mexs, knocking out expansions is already doing only to the detriment of your own economic strength. Moreover, the person who starts responding to your units after he has made this coveted mech has the opportunity to make more units and also speed up the future to improve the mex.
  Do not force this text, if u have a bit different situation where mexes do not coring . I am talking about meta of 1.9k-3300, gameplay things. There are also exceptions here, in view of the commande teamgames where there may be several aggressors who realize this well in order to win. Here I am talking about meta and POWER of ECORUSH.

• And why did I leave this message in this place? Yes, because something is not what you do. Realize the balance between factions already. Balance between economy and gameplay. Where if you do something it should deal damage and not just slow you down for a while. Why once again cybran debuffs and buffs of other factions. Is it not enough that cybran is played less frequently now than it was in eons of 2018. What the fuck Sparky, a commander with a T2 and a cannon is not enough for you, that you can rape anyway wiout it?. Does the airbag also needed to be, at the hard winning wi de such strong acu upgrades, because of the front attack, arty, pd creeping with combined acu+army pushes? Or thats for t"o work not only with a anel, but also with a mouth during rapes?" Increasing energy cost for air exp? - Is it worth building air, problem? Scout,Radar, ok? Or, in the end, do not put a spam moment with 100-800 asfs as a meta and "Press S to win a dogfight." We increase the hp UEF of the destroyer, we do jamming for t3 Scouts, Gunships, we make the stations cheap and effective as hives, sparkies, we make a tactical nuke PUNCH everything. Let's make the build time for the titans 2-3 seconds slower in real life so that no one thinks that the faction's overbuff is going on.

• Ah, there is also a rework of the bubble shield for the coma, what? Will you make it like aeon? To make the commander generally look like BBС(or maybe as in good netorate eroges male) against Poor Cyb Stealthn 1k hp?

• Tactical nuke? Thats more about challenge and fun stuff then thing about gameplay. That should have rework maybe it would be good thing if that thing to x0.5 damage of tml rocket, but with a splash as strat or a bit increased. Instead of this, kinda useless thing for the teamgames and ladder, untill cyb having lazor, and sera with a gun damage. OH that guys upper talking about radius of the tactical nuke, holy shit, u are really going to use that stuff? At the moment when you can afford it, the opponent can already fuck you with 50 corsairs or 10 strats.

• In general, the mobility of the cybran faction has become somewhat unusable, playing the sea, it is difficult for you to counter t2 hovers with flaks without asking for engineers of another faction. Protect your ships in a t3 battle if you don’t have an advantage initially, or fight on equal terms where the opponent has an extra. hp due to shields, and you have a fucking stealth that you can wipe your ass with, because you can put 10 t1 engineers on t1 factory on an assist and spam t1 scouts and enemy will fuck your sweet babies big daddy with a big, long, sweet chocolate with white filling big black gun-muzzle (tempest with t2 shields, reference) or even 5 inch aeon battleships, again with shields. Also, any t1-t2 hover spam is better to counter with FUCKING CRUISERS, because of the distance and normal rate of fire. Fuck, SOMEONE IS BUILDING A CRUISER NOT AGAINST THE AIR OR VISIBILITY, BUT TO FUCK T1-T2 LAND UNITS WHICH CREEP LIKE EVIL ON HALLOWEEN.

• Nothing I can say about Sniper bots, they are pretty hm, good balanced? Fathers will take them (T1 bombers or mummy t2 arty's.)

• NUKE and Nuke-SUBS now for real u just need a bit more time, and mass waste on pgens, thats all about new patch.

• I'm waiting for a hate, and least of all I'm waiting for an explanation that the patch is really useful and balances the game, and especially makes units playable for only one faction.

Also, some points can be far-fetched here and I can be wrong about something, I understand this perfectly and agree with your views on the game. Rather, everything that has been said here has simply boiled over.

• CMON DUDE Give Jamming to ASF's it would be cool when 400 asfs will fight against 300 and will miss half of hits.
• OH CMON DUDE u Debuffin Cybran t3 torp, what sucks against bs's and t2 cruisers, and having only thing to do it's delay a time base crush.
  -TurretYawRange: 140 > 145 At least u made something to cybran. 5 pts of turnrate, god,thanks, lets SALEM crushing games happen, thats will change much things without navy maps. Or at least at their micro when the real state of winning about combination of torps, frigs micro, its just sandbox between fights againsta two destros. But with a real thing, thats turn rate not valuabe if enemy is not 3.3k rated at all welcomes. Thats all.

KILL ME.
Thanks again for doing something, maybe it's better than no one doing anything. Especially for free. But is there a better way to do this?

@espiranto Me no understand your English.

@melanol Try turn on screen

Don't troll the man for his English. An actually good player raised some valid points about the current balance.